Time out mechanic confusion

[mick]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


...As my season progresses, I hope to contribute more to this board. I've mostly been a baseball umpire the last five years and have written articles for the pay-per-view portion of the site. But I must say that the basketball bug has hit hard. Again.

Rich

Welcome back, Rich.
I am sure your contributions to this forum will be as helpful to me as they are on the baseball side.
mick

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Every year there is confusion on the proper mechanic in our region for time-outs. I always wondered, "why is it so confusing?" Now I know. The Official's Manual explains it simply and in detail. Why do some officials and states (if indeed any states would go to the trouble of changing an NFHS mechanic) change it because they "have a better way?" Why not just do it right?

At the state tournament, several officials did their "own thing" rather than the NFHS recommended mechanic. They all went home after the first day of officiating.

Z

Just like anything else, states can adhere to their own logic on what is right and wrong as it relates to the mechanics or what fits it's officials. The NF is not God or is not the Supreme Being of what is Basketball or any other sport for that matter. States and school have the right to come up with their own way of doing things. The NF is just a guide to what the states want to follow. Some do not even adhere to all rules and experiment with their own rules and regulations. I just last night did a game with an Iowa team and an Illinois team, and I had to explain somethings because both states do not adhere to some very specific rules. That is just the way it is and will always be.

Peace

[zebraman]

That is just the way it is and will always be.

But why? What's the point of the NFHS putting out a book if we're just all going to do it our own way? In organizations, there is usually a defined process for creating change. There is w/ the NFHS too. If states have a better idea, they can submit it and let it be changed. In the meantime, why not just do it the way it's documented until it's changed? You can either just accept it and be part of the problem, or maybe a change agent that makes things more standard. Up to you.

I mean personally, I think it's kind of silly for the T and the L (2-person mechanics here) to switch on a foul that the Trail calls in backcourt by himself/herself... especially with no pressure. Why not just call it, turn and report it, then inbound the ball and save all the additional steps and time? But you know what... the NFHS wants us to switch every foul so I do.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
That is just the way it is and will always be.

But why? What's the point of the NFHS putting out a book if we're just all going to do it our own way? In organizations, there is usually a defined process for creating change. There is w/ the NFHS too. If states have a better idea, they can submit it and let it be changed. In the meantime, why not just do it the way it's documented until it's changed? You can either just accept it and be part of the problem, or maybe a change agent that makes things more standard. Up to you.

I mean personally, I think it's kind of silly for the T and the L (2-person mechanics here) to switch on a foul that the Trail calls in backcourt by himself/herself... especially with no pressure. Why not just call it, turn and report it, then inbound the ball and save all the additional steps and time? But you know what... the NFHS wants us to switch every foul so I do.

Z

I do not understand why some people make such a big deal out of this. If a State has a policy or wants to dictate how their officials are going to officiate, why would you have a problem with that? I know I do not care what they do in Iowa. Iowa for girls basketball does a coin flip at the beginning of the game, they do not do a jump ball. What difference does it make to me? If that is what Iowa does and it does not go along with the NF, so be it. No different than if a state requires the same officials to do a Girl's Varsity and then a Boy's Varsity in the same night, that is just the way it is. It is not like that here, but what difference does it make. What difference to you does it make if they do what they want to do? Seriously, if I have learned anything from these boards, is the fact that states and regions do different things and many of those things are outside the NF rules. IAABO gives test that do not fall into the NF tests and require officials to do things that my state does not require, I could care less. If I lived there I would be concerned or worry about it, but even in differnet parts of my state, officials have different ways of doing things. When you live in Rome, you do what the Romans do. When you live outside of Rome, who the hell cares?

Peace

[zebraman]

I do not understand why some people make such a big deal out of this.

Not making a big deal out of it. Just commenting that it seems as if it would be easier if everybody did it the same way instead of some areas thinking they have a "better way." There would be less confusion if everyone did it the same way - the right way.

Z

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Mr. Elias (only used the "Mr." part becasue I know it will elicit a response - just in humor Chuck)....

Your response to my post of a couple days ago makes you sound like the resolute veteran...

Timeout positions
I am UNconcerned about officials switching positions during a timeout - nothing in the mechanics manual specifies that we should change positions. However, there are two things that need to be communicated 1) this is where the ball is coming in. One of the officials should "take the ball where it is to be put in play, face the table and indicate the direction of play by placing the ball either in front or behind the body or one either side..." and 2) that an official is wathcing the bench/scorers table area. "The other official should be on the division line ... and be facing the table, ready to beckon properly-reported substitues into the game and ready to give the scorer and timer any needed information. [Additionally,] If a free throw is to follow a time-out, the offcial with the ball takes a position on the free-throw line." NFHS Mechanics manual Page 43 article 273.

If the official with the ball is not standing at the location where the throw-in will occur (mislocated at the top of the key, free throw line, etc.) then this information has not been communicated. Agreeably the coach could still ask, but by not being in the proper location you have created a need for the coach to ask. Additionally, when you now indicate the location from 30 feet away, the coach really has no exact information and would be required to ask again if he seriously wants an exact location. This pisses-off the coach and inturn angers the official because the coach asked twice.

If neither official is located at the division line (equally distant from the scorer's table) then which official should the substitues report to? Of which official does the table ask clarification questions? I know it doesn't matter but you have created a minor confusion again.

Trail position during free throw.
Again there are responsibilities and those responsibilities dictate the required position. Agreeably, we only call a few free throw lane violations but we must still be in the proper postion to sell that call.

To see a shooter violation I feel you should be in line with the free throw line. To see a lane violation at the lower block, opposite side of the lane, you need to see that player's feet without looking through the legs and feet of the players on the near side of the lane. Where those two lines of sight intersect is very close to the 3-point line. This is where I stand. Another benefits is that this also puts me in a great position to sell a rebounding foul.

Standing on the side line free throw line extended does not allow a clear view of the lower block. Scooting toward the division line so the lower block can be seen precludes you from definitely seeing the free throw line violation. This last position puts you even farther away for a rebounding foul call.

My original question was

.... How do you, with politcal correctness, realign a veteran's thinking?

Perhaps I've just done it.... perhaps it is impossible.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Mr. Elias. . .

Somebody's looking for trouble!!

I'm not sure how I should react to being called a "resolute" veteran , but I'll comment on a couple of your points, Tony.

1) this is where the ball is coming in. One of the officials should "take the ball where it is to be put in play, face the table and indicate the direction of play by placing the ball either in front or behind the body or one either side..."

This is the one and only thing that I think is actually good in the Fed mechanic. Having an official indicate spot and direction simply by standing there is, I think, a very intelligent thing. However, there are a couple things that make it non-essential.

First, it can't be used if the ball is to be inbounded on the table-side sideline. You can't stand at the spot or you are in the team's huddle or on their bench. Not a huge deal, I know, b/c you just stand 15 feet onto the floor. Nevertheless, it's not practical for the bench sideline.

Second, how many times have you been standing at the correct spot with the ball on the correct hip and had a coach turn around and ask you, "Where's the ball coming in?" Most of the coaches have no idea of the reason you're standing there, so the only people we're communicating with are ourselves and our partners. Now, that's not an entirely bad idea in itself, I realize. Sometimes we brain-cramp, and it's good to have a reminder. But on the whole, the mechanic isn't all that critical, in my view.

when you now indicate the location from 30 feet away, the coach really has no exact information. . .

which official should the substitues report to? Of which official does the table ask clarification questions?

These are non-issues to me, honestly. The subs report to the scorer/timer, not us. And the scorer can get anybody's attention relatively easily. The coach doesn't need an exact position. They usually just want to know endline/sideline, which side of basket on endline, frontcourt/backcourt.

Additionally, as I said earlier, if you're in the last minute of a tight game and there's a TO, all those mechanics go right out the window. Screw 'em, and go talk to your partner(s).

Having said all that, let me just reiterate* that in my HS games, I use Fed mechanics even for time-outs (unless there are cheerleaders using the middle of the floor).

Where those two lines of sight intersect is very close to the 3-point line. This is where I stand.

Personally, if I'm on the 3-point line, I'm too close to the shooter. I don't want to be a distraction, even peripherally. So I stand back near the sidline and one step, maybe two, behind the shooter.

I also don't need to see the whole FT line, b/c I don't really care if his big toe comes to rest on the line. I (mostly) only care if he runs to the hoop to try and rebound, and I don't have to be on the FT line extended to see that.

As far as rebounding position, when the ball is released I take one large step toward the basket (as I do on any try). This puts me right at the FT line extended and gives me great position for weak side rebounding as well as possible GT or BI.
So how you like me now, dog?

Chuck

*P.S. -- if "reiterate" means to repeat, what does "iterate" mean? Look it up, I was surprised.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Is this a trick question? Have you been messin' with my dictionary?

I take it that the "re" is truly part of the word in this case and not a prefix as in renumber.

Thanks Chuck. At least you picked an intelligent, terrier looking dog. I can live with that.

[dblref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I do not understand why some people make such a big deal out of this. If a State has a policy or wants to dictate how their officials are going to officiate, why would you have a problem with that? I know I do not care what they do in Iowa. Iowa for girls basketball does a coin flip at the beginning of the game, they do not do a jump ball. What difference does it make to me? If that is what Iowa does and it does not go along with the NF, so be it. No different than if a state requires the same officials to do a Girl's Varsity and then a Boy's Varsity in the same night, that is just the way it is. It is not like that here, but what difference does it make. What difference to you does it make if they do what they want to do? Seriously, if I have learned anything from these boards, is the fact that states and regions do different things and many of those things are outside the NF rules. IAABO gives test that do not fall into the NF tests and require officials to do things that my state does not require, I could care less. If I lived there I would be concerned or worry about it, but even in differnet parts of my state, officials have different ways of doing things. When you live in Rome, you do what the Romans do. When you live outside of Rome, who the hell cares?

The Venicians.

Peace

[dblref]

Sorry guys/gals -- screwed up that attempt at sarcasm. Hate those senior moments.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
So how you like me now, dog?

Btw,if you reiterate too much,you'll go blind!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown


To see a lane violation at the lower block, opposite side of the lane, you need to see that player's feet without looking through the legs and feet of the players on the near side of the lane.


Standing on the side line free throw line extended does not allow a clear view of the lower block.

Both of these statements are reasons why the proper Fed mechanic for free throw lane-space violations is that the Lead has responsibility for BOTH lower blocks. The trail only has the shooter and the top three spaces on the opposite side.
So stand nearer to the free throw line and let your partner call his area.

[John Schaefferkoetter]

Zebraman has it exactly correct, going by the National Federation.

Another pointer, during the time out or between quarters, the official that is going to administer the next live ball should hold the ball to the side of the body that will start the direction of the next live ball. If you were taking the ball out at the sidelines, obviously the official would place the ball on the left or right side of the body. If you were at either end line, obviously the official would place the ball on the front or rear of the body.

Let me tell you, it is a great tool because I can remember "day dreaming" during a time out and forgetting who should start the next live ball.