Probably screwed this up.....arrow loss???????

Jeremy Hohn · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 01:00pm

Well lately I have been doing a quite a bit of college women's games and the NCAA makes it relatively easy on us when dealing with bench technicals and just picking up at the point of interruption. Well last night I had this happen in a HS game...

I was with another relatively new official that was doing a really good job on judgement and calling what needed to be called, bot not getting ticky-tacky.

Well after the 3rd quarter, the losing coach (whos girls weten't playing worth a crap) starts jumping my co about a foul he thinks should have been called on his shooter. The girl heaved a 3 from about 30 feet away, and her forward momentum caused her to crash into a defender who had arms straight up and was stationary.

Well I knew my co was a bit green in this area, and the coach was a relatively young guy (early 20s) who had been coaching hard, begging occassionally, but now he had crossed the line and stomped the floor and scremed "what was that" really loud where the whole gym could hear him.

My co tried to calm him down but I calmly walked across the floor and told my co "I got him, Brandon" and Td him

I was really calm and here is where I messed up I think..the arrow was set toward white (the coach who got Td) for the throw in to begin the 4th quarter. I wasn't sure if they lose it or not, so I told the other coach that I really wasn't sure, (he wasn't either) and I told him also that NCAA just goes with the point of interruption on all Ts and that is what I was going to go with and he said fine.
So I let white throw it in to begin the 4th..........messup?

[Edited by Jeremy Hohn on Dec 7th, 2002 at 12:37 PM]

Mregor · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 01:13pm

The direct T to the head coach does not affect the arrow at all. Ball to opponenets at the Division Line as part of the penalty for the Tech. Coach loses coaching box rights and has to remain seated the rest of the game.

Mregor

Jeremy Hohn · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 01:21pm

So I should have given the ball to Red and left the arrow alone to start the 4th quarter?

Then given white (the team whose coach I T'd) the first jump ball?

ChuckElias · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 01:26pm

Mregor is right, but more generally, in HS a foul never has any effect on the arrow. A foul NEVER causes the arrow to change. So in your case, you shoot 2 FTs for the T, give the ball to red (b/c in HS it's 2 shots and the ball), and give white the next held ball. The arrow is irrelevant during administration of a technical foul.

Chuck

Jeremy Hohn · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 01:36pm

Thanks guys, 10 seasons and never had that happen in HS. Now I know....

mick · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 01:48pm

Jeremy,
I agree with Mregor and Chuck, but please explain you going and interjecting for your partner.

You partner was trying "to calm him down" and you walked over to "T" the coach. Why didn't you let your partner deal with this thing and call his own "T", if that is what he decided to do. When does you partner get the experience to react to your satisfaction?

There may be more to this sitch than meets my eye.

mick

Jeremy Hohn · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 02:29pm

My partner was quite a bit less in experience than I was, he was brewing for it anyway, and I felt that I needed to "rescue" him since I gave him the opportunity to "T" him and he didn't. I am not a frequent giver of Ts if I can help it (thus the problem above) but he crossed the line and was showing up the crew. So I did what I felt was best.

He really wasn't trying to calm him down...he was taking an *** chewing....

mick · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Hohn
My partner was quite a bit less in experience than I was, he was brewing for it anyway, and I felt that I needed to "rescue" him since I gave him the opportunity to "T" him and he didn't. I am not a frequent giver of Ts if I can help it (thus the problem above) but he crossed the line and was showing up the crew. So I did what I felt was best.

He really wasn't trying to calm him down...he was taking an *** chewing....

Jeremy,
It is certainly good to take care of your partner.

Now, after the game, did your partner say, "Thank you", or did your partner say "WTF were you doing there?" ...Or did he just have that Deer-in-the-headlights look?

mick

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Mregor is right, but more generally, in HS a foul never has any effect on the arrow. A foul NEVER causes the arrow to change.

...how about a double foul?

ChuckElias · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 05:29pm

Grrrrrrrrr

By the way, glad you've got your electricity!!

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 06:13pm

Never lost it! But I know a lot of people who don't have it!

ChuckElias · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 07, 2002, 07:10pm

I'm glad to hear you were spared. We've been hearing how horrendous it is down there. Glad you're ok.

chuck

Nevadaref · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 08, 2002, 08:03am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Hohn
So I should have given the ball to Red and left the arrow alone to start the 4th quarter?

Then given white (the team whose coach I T'd) the first jump ball?

Yes, this is the correct NFHS procedure since the T occurred AFTER the end of the 3rd quarter. The entire penalty, 2 shots and the ball, are administered as part of the following quarter.

Now, a couple of points just to be extra clear. Red is getting the ball due to the T, not the AP. White does not lose the arrow due to the T, they just don't get their AP opportunity yet, they get the next held ball.

Also things are a little different if this T had happened at the end of the 4th quarter. There the official has to use the score to determine what in quarter the penalty takes place. If it is a tie score before the T, the free throws are part of the OT and you will give 2 shots and the ball and not have a jump. You will play the overtime even if the free throws untie the score.
If one team leads by more than 2 points, the game is over and you don't shoot any free throws.
If the team committing the T is leading by 1 or 2, the free throws are considered part of the 4th quarter and will determine if overtime is necessary or not. If it is to be played, it will start with a jump ball.
This is all well-detailed in the case book on pages 37 and 38. Cases 5.6

ChuckElias · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 08, 2002, 08:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Mregor is right, but more generally, in HS a foul never has any effect on the arrow. A foul NEVER causes the arrow to change.

...how about a double foul?

Yeah, but notice I said "a foul". There's my out. One foul never changes the arrow. Whew!

Chuck

mick · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 08, 2002, 09:12am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Mregor is right, but more generally, in HS a foul never has any effect on the arrow. A foul NEVER causes the arrow to change.

...how about a double foul?

Yeah, but notice I said "a foul". There's my out. One foul never changes the arrow. Whew!

Chuck

Great try, Chuck! Did that keep you up all night.