Duplicate Number

[bard]

My partner from last night reported this. It happened in a game he had last week. In that game, my P was the ump. This is freshman girls, with under 4 minutes to go, and the game decided. One team (don't know if it was the team in the lead or not) puts in a girl with the same number as a girl on her team who has already come out of the game.

Ref whistles a 'T' for the duplicate number. The Ump, my P, is waiting to administer the shots and notices the Ref and coach are "having words." The ref refuses to let the girl come into the game.

The story is not quite finished as the parents of the girl are waiting in the parking lot and give both officials an earful about denying their daughter playing time.

With where the game was, my P says he would have let the girl play. Seems reasonable to me. Any other thoughts?

[firedoc]

Any changes which are required to be made in the score book after the 10 minute mark prior to the game are charged with a technical foul. This would apply in the first quarter or the fourth. The fact that one team was significantly in the lead does not affect the rule. I don't see why the girl was not allowed to participate - all she would need do is switch jerseys.

[mick]

Originally posted by bard
My partner from last night reported this. It happened in a game he had last week. In that game, my P was the ump. This is freshman girls, with under 4 minutes to go, and the game decided. One team (don't know if it was the team in the lead or not) puts in a girl with the same number as a girl on her team who has already come out of the game.

Ref whistles a 'T' for the duplicate number. The Ump, my P, is waiting to administer the shots and notices the Ref and coach are "having words." The ref refuses to let the girl come into the game.

The story is not quite finished as the parents of the girl are waiting in the parking lot and give both officials an earful about denying their daughter playing time.

With where the game was, my P says he would have let the girl play. Seems reasonable to me. Any other thoughts?

U.P. here, we are generally told about duplicate numbers before the game. We mention it to the opposing coach, and we play on. I have never had the duplicate numbers show up on the floor at the same time.
Who cares?
Losers care... maybe.
mick

[Nevadaref]

Bard,
I don't have my rules book on me now (so I will check it later and reply again), but I believe the timing for this T was messed up. It is confusing when these T are penalized so some vets can step up here and help. However, I think illegal shirts/pants and numbers (such as 99) are only penalized if that player plays. But wouldn't a duplicate number be penalized at the 10 minute mark, since you would notice it when you checked the book? Of course, maybe this girl's number was listed as something else in the book.
Lastly, I think that going by the book, this little girl cannot play until she does change to a number that has not yet been worn in the game by one of her teammates.

Yes, it is in the case book 3.2.2 B part (b).
two Team B team members are wearing the same number. Ruling: a technical foul is charged to Team B upon discovery of the identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating.

So that official got it right that she could not play while wearing that jersey. You'll have to explain why it wasn't caught earlier though.


[Edited by nevadaref on Dec 6th, 2002 at 07:49 AM]

[mick]

Being the last player and having a different-style, same numbered jersey (because of number, because of a shade of color, or because of size) can be humiliating enough.
Let us not further humiliate the player by calling a technical foul and by bringing further attention to a difference, or a "sameness" that a player may bring to the game.

Is there an intent to deceive here? Don't think so.
So, now, let us look at the spirit of the rule....

mick

[Mregor]

This problem usually stems from the lack of money. The uniforms for levels below varsity are usually hand-me-downs or a collection of older uniforms. In these tough economic times, what taxpayer wants to spend money on outfitting a basketball team. I think not letting a young player play because of a technical violation that they don't have any control over is wrong. Afterall, we are talking about a youth sport program here. Of course, this is all my personal opinion and not in strict compliance with the rules. Now the parents outside confronting the officials is another matter. They are upset that their child was not allowed to play due to an error they had no control of, but what gives them the right to confront the officials on their way to the car. This, I have a problem with.

Mregor

[Brian Watson]

Is it so hard to tape over one number to make it legal?

Generally, one of those numbers is open. Issue the T for te book change, let her in, and play one.

We should look for way to let the kids play, not try to keep them off the floor.

[Nevadaref]

Before someone gets upset with me, I should say that earlier I was just posting what the actual rule is. Of course, if I ever do a Girls Frosh game again I would completely ignore it. Just as I would 3 seconds, and many travels, and a lot of fouls.....

[theboys]

Gotta tell ya about a similar, less threatening, situation. This was a rec league game. Opponent had two players with the same number. Rec league, high school kids, no particular significance to the game, so no one made a big deal of it.

One of the kids was a real hot dog, and hurt his team throughout the game with ill-advised shots, passes, etc. He was regularly taken out because of dumb plays and foul trouble. Finally, in the 4th quarter, he fouled out.

As he walked off the court, he was openly whining. Finally, he says, "I can't have fouled out. I think you were giving all of the other 23's fouls to me!"

Probably funnier if you were there. It definitely was funny if you were.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
Is it so hard to tape over one number to make it legal?

Brian gets the gold star for today. Jeez, it's a Freshman girls game! (PA Coach, notice the emphasis is on "Freshman" and not on "girls" ). The point of these games is to get the kids into the game, so that they can get better and progress to JV and maybe V. Let them play! Let them play! Let them play!

Chuck

Does "Freshman girls" = "Freshwomen"?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias



Does "Freshman girls" = "Freshwomen"?

Freshpersons?
People of Freshness?

[williebfree]

Originally posted by mick
Being the last player and having a different-style, same numbered jersey (because of number, because of a shade of color, or because of size) can be humiliating enough.
Let us not further humiliate the player by calling a technical foul and by bringing further attention to a difference, or a "sameness" that a player may bring to the game.

Is there an intent to deceive here? Don't think so.
So, now, let us look at the spirit of the rule....

mick

Mick.... You stated very well, my attitude about this!

Mregor ... Your post is "right on", as well. Nice job gentlemen.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
People of Freshness?

I don't like this one. It sounds too much like the TV commercials that I can't stand to watch.

Chuck

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Freshpersons?
People of Freshness?

I will concede that I still call it "man-to-man" defense, and to "find your man", "box out your man", etc. I just can't say "woman-to-woman" defense, or "girl-to-girl". I do know of one coach that calls it "person-to-person" which cracks me up.

[mick]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

I will concede that I still call it "man-to-man" defense, and to "find your man", "box out your man", etc. I just can't say "woman-to-woman" defense, or "girl-to-girl". I do know of one coach that calls it "person-to-person" which cracks me up.

PA Coach,
You may have now offended both of the politically correct officials registered with the NFHS.
mick