6 players on the court - what would you do?

[Bart Tyson]

Way to go Jurassic Referee, You just had to trash our way out of this situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Way to go Jurassic Referee, You just had to trash our way out of this situation.

I'm not a big fan of calling T's unless they are absolutely necessary,Bart.I've never been stuck with the label of being "over officious",either.I just think that there are some situations,and this is one of them,where you HAVE to call the T(like it or not).If you don't,you can dig yourself into a deep hole with a league,your supervisor,etc.You've just got absolutely no defense if somebody challenges you for not calling a T on this play.I've seen some awfully good officials lose games because they tried to be "Mr. Nice Guy".

[Richard Ogg]

How about this escape?

What happens if you notice the 6 players after you give the ball to the shooter for the first of 2 free throws. You could swallow your whistle, let the player shoot, recover the ball, and THEN discover the 6th player. At that point the ball is dead so there is no T. (Besides, standing and watching someone shoot a free throw where there will be no rebound is not very active in the participation department.)

If there is only 1 shot, or it is the second shot, then you must give the T.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm not a big fan of calling T's unless they are absolutely necessary,Bart.I've never been stuck with the label of being "over officious",either.I just think that there are some situations,and this is one of them,where you HAVE to call the T(like it or not).If you don't,you can dig yourself into a deep hole with a league,your supervisor,etc.You've just got absolutely no defense if somebody challenges you for not calling a T on this play.I've seen some awfully good officials lose games because they tried to be "Mr. Nice Guy".

I know, I am on the same page as you on this issue.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by paulis
I dont have my rule book handy but I believe it mentions something like "actively participating". Could just say that the sixth player was not meeting this requirement, remove him/her from the court and play on.

If you use that reasoning, maybe I can put a couple extra players on when I have some lazy players on defense I always seem to have players that are not actively participating to my satisfaction.

[paulis]

2-3-2 zone defense? Should get the job done!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by paulis
2-3-2 zone defense? Should get the job done!

Nope,you counter it with 3-2-3 offense!

[JugglingReferee]

Easy. Ref's mistake. A ref quickly hurries over to coach A (before his players do) and asks him to remove a player now, send all players back to the free throw line, and not be charged with a timeout.

Or, if any of these conditions are not met, the timeout must be granted.

Mike

Originally posted by theboys
Freshman boys game this weekend - A1 shoots, is fouled, shot goes in. As teams line up for the FT, A's coach puts in some subs. Problem is, more go on the court than come off. To make matters worse, none of the refs (3 man crew), neither of the coaches, and apparently, none of the players notice. Who's that leave? The all-knowing fans!

Ref bounces the ball to A1 at the line. Stands erupt with calls of six players on the court. Team A's coach quickly calls a time-out. Howls continue. Refs confer.

You make the call!

[JugglingReferee]

I'm going to assume that the game was a close one... and as such, I think it is terrible of the officials to allow this to happen with 30 seconds left.

Mike

Originally posted by Pirate
IMO, just because it might be the coach's or official's mistake/oversight, does not mean that this situation should be overlooked. The rule book does not give us the leeway (sp?) to determine which rules we enforce and which ones we do not. I know, I know, sometimes we have to use our "judgement" in making certain calls (see Rut's response). But, as an ex-coach, let me suggest that we (as officials) are better off if we make the calls we see or are aware of and forget the temptation to avoid certain calls due to an official's error. Are we there to save our butts or make the correct call???

Let me give you an example that happened in a district tournament game in which I was coaching many years ago. Game is tied with 30 seconds remaining, team A's basketball. Team A takes a timeout to substitute. Both teams use the timeout to discuss strategy. After the timeout, Team A inbounds and makes several passes. At that time, the Team B coach (me) notices that Team A did not remove a player and there are 6 Team A players on the floor. The officials, now aware that there are 6 Team A players on the floor, have no choice other than to "T" Team A (and remove the egg from their face for allowing such an incident to happen in the first place). We (Team B) make the free throws, get possession and hold on to win. Team B's coach didn't blame the officials for their call. In fact, if anything, he admitted to a lack of communication which led to the T. The lack of a call in this situation would simply have compounded the ugliness of the situation, in my opinion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Easy. Ref's mistake. A ref quickly hurries over to coach A (before his players do) and asks him to remove a player now, send all players back to the free throw line, and not be charged with a timeout.

Or, if any of these conditions are not met, the timeout must be granted.

Mike

Got anything in the rulebook that will back your plan up,Mike?

[just another ref]

Originally posted by ScottParks
Here are the words from the rule book:

Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 1 . . . .
ART. 2 . . .
ART. 3 . . .
ART. 4 . . . .
ART. 5 . . . .
ART. 6 . . . Have more than five team members participating simultaneously.

What is the definition of participating? Why does the ball have to be live? Definition of a player: (4-34-1) one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time. With this in mind are these "players" not "participating" even when standing idle during a free throw. I think in this case you certainly have leeway when the subs come in to give them a break: "Six players, coach.
Somebody's gotta go out." or whatever. BUT, the ultimate responsibility here lies with the coach. Once any kind of action has resumed after the substitution is thought to be complete, whether it was a single free throw or whatever, if
you count 6 of one color, you almost have to call a T.

[JugglingReferee]

Nada.

Of course, I check on every play, and some day one will get by me. However, in the sitch that was described, there has been no real disadvantage. Ok, maybe the shooter was iced a bit, but there was no up-and-down the court action.

What if one referee's hand was up and the other bounced the ball to the shooter prematurely. This is a ref's mistake. As is the ref bringing in the subs allowing 11 on the court.

If I screw up, I try not to penalize the kids playing the game.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Got anything in the rulebook that will back your plan up,Mike?

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Dec 5th, 2002 at 06:37 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Nada.

Of course, I check on every play, and some day one will get by me. However, in the sitch that was described, there has been no real disadvantage. Ok, maybe the shooter was iced a bit, but there was no up-and-down the court action.

What if one referee's hand was up and the other bounced the ball to the shooter prematurely. This is a ref's mistake. As is the ref bringing in the subs allowing 11 on the court.

If I screw up, I try not to penalize the kids playing the game.

The team that had 6 players on the court is the party that screwed up.

No disadvantage?One team has 6 players on the court during a live ball-you ignore it-and you haven't disadvantaged the OTHER team(not to mention ignoring a clearly written rule)? How can you possibly explain your way out of this one,if the coach puts in a complaint to the league about it? We don't get to pick and choose the rules we administer due to like or dislike.

There's always 2 teams on the court,and you have to be fair to both of them.

[Nevadaref]

Under 4-34-1 ...A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time.
and 4-34-3 says ...A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player ....

So to sort this situation out:
1. We have 5 players on the court for each team.
2. We have a number of substitutes properly check-in at the table and are beckoned onto the court by an official. This is the definition of legal entry, thus the entry of all substitutes is legal and they are now players.
3. We had 5 players from each team on the court prior to the substitution process, but as soon as the subs legally entered, each player who is supposed to be replaced has now become bench personnel. (This was easier to see under last year's rules when the substitute had to give the number of the player he was replacing as well as his own to the scorer. But alas since no one followed that, they have dropped this requirement.)
For example, if Red had three subs enter and White 2, Red now has 2 players on the court from before plus 3 players who were substitutes and 3 team members who should now be leaving. Similiarly, White has 3 players carryover plus 2 players who were subs, and 2 team members who are now bench personnel and are leaving.
4. Notice that both teams still have only 5 players on the court during this dead ball. That is why there is no team technical foul during the dead ball.
5. Now all former players, who are now bench personnel, have made it to their respective benches except one. He is confused or didn't get the message from his teammate or coach that he is supposed to come out. Notice this is the team's fault! Not the official's. The officials have done everything properly so far.
6. At this time the officials fail to notice that team member A6 has still not left the court and allow the ball to become live. While it would be best if the officials did notice this and instructed him to leave before putting the ball in play, it is not their duty to do so according to a strict reading of the officials manual or the rules book. 116. in the Officials Manual concerns substitutions and says, "Officials shall count the players prior to putting the ball in play." This is definitely splitting hairs and being legalistic, but at this time there are only 5 players on the court for each team. The problem is there is also one team member, who is bench personnel, out there who shouldn't be. While I admit that the officials are probably asleep, and likely no count of players was made, according to the definitions given in rule 4 even if a count of "players" was made before the ball became live it would be five for each team. So this is by rule the team's fault and not the officials. If everyone else made it off the court properly, clearly the officials also gave the one that remained plently of time to exit. We shouldn't have to wait for him to figure out where he is supposed to be.
7. Finally, we have six PLAYERS in the game for one team when the ball becomes live since the team member who failed to exit once again becomes a player. This is so since his entry, or rather is lack of exit, is not legal and he therefore, only becomes a player when the ball becomes live. Team technical foul at this time.


To summarize, the T is not for putting too many in, it is for failing to remove the correct amount. The team member who failed to leave causes the T when the ball becomes live as he becomes a player whose entry is not legal. It is his fault, not the officials. I for one will not lose any sleep if I have to call a T for this as I firmly believe the team's lack of communication within itself caused this foul.

[ChuckElias]

Clearly, NevadaRef is out to win this year's Mark T DeNucci, Sr "Longest Post of the Year" award. I won it last year and I won't give it up without a fight, tho. I'll just bide my time until a subject comes along that catches my eye and then BAM! NevadaRef will never know what hit him!

For an interesting history of the MTD, Sr award as well as the annual Slappy Dan awards, see the following:

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=5468

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=5254