One player left

[Nevadaref]

Does anyone know for sure what is the interpretation for this situation:
Team A leads by 3 with only two seconds left. Team A has only 2 players remaining in the game at this point. The rest are DQ'd. One of these players commits his 5th foul leaving only one player in the game for team A. It is a shooting foul. Now since team A clearly has a chance to win, the game is not forfeited and team B will shoot the free throws. The problem is that team A cannot fulfill the requirement of 8-1-3a during the free throw since it only has one player left. Is this a violation? Is it a T? Is it nothing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Does anyone know for sure what is the interpretation for this situation:
Team A leads by 3 with only two seconds left. Team A has only 2 players remaining in the game at this point. The rest are DQ'd. One of these players commits his 5th foul leaving only one player in the game for team A. It is a shooting foul. Now since team A clearly has a chance to win, the game is not forfeited and team B will shoot the free throws. The problem is that team A cannot fulfill the requirement of 8-1-3a during the free throw since it only has one player left. Is this a violation? Is it a T? Is it nothing?

This is a continueing A FT violation until the B free throw shooter makes his (assumed)2 foul shots.In theory,the last team A player can then make a throw in and team B will either miss the last shot or not have enough time to get it off,giving A the win.That's why you don't forfeit and play on in this case.

[williebfree]

What if A5 steps inside the FT extended early. Do we now go to the arrow?

[Nevadaref]

JR,
That is what I was thinking too, but I don't know for sure.
How do you know it is a violation?
And why is it not a T for delay of game?

I'm using this ruling to create a rather amusing senario!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
JR,
That is what I was thinking too, but I don't know for sure.
How do you know it is a violation?
And why is it not a T for delay of game?

I'm using this ruling to create a rather amusing senario!

Damn,Nevada,you're making me hit the books!
Of course,that not really a bad thing!

The violation is spelled out in Rule 9-1-2--"an opponent of the free thrower shall occupy each lane space adjacent to the end line during the try".The penalty for this violation is set out in R9-1-2Penaltyb--i.e.you just award a substitute free throw if the original FT is no good.

You can't give anybody a T for "delay of game" because no one is doing anything to delay the game!It's that simple.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by williebfree
What if A5 steps inside the FT extended early. Do we now go to the arrow?

Willie,in this case a B player is shooting a FT with the last A player lined up low.Do you mean that someone on the B team now commits a FT violation,resulting in a double violation?If you did,I think that you do have a double violation and an AP.

[Nevadaref]

The rules book says it is a T if the free thrower is not in the circle when the officials are ready unless RP in effect.
Likewise, I always thought it was a T for delay of game if the non-shooting team did not properly occupy the two lane spaces nearest the endline during a free throw unless the resuming-play procedure was in effect. Perhaps this is not true.

What I am getting at is that if we are going to enforce the violation against a team with only one player left, then logically we should also be enforcing the techincal foul. (If it is one.) Perhaps we should be enforcing neither. I just don't see the justification for enforcing one and not the other.
PS JR, it is not what they are doing that gets the T, but rather what they are NOT doing!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
The rules book says it is a T if the free thrower is not in the circle when the officials are ready unless RP in effect.
Likewise, I always thought it was a T for delay of game if the non-shooting team did not properly occupy the two lane spaces nearest the endline during a free throw unless the resuming-play procedure was in effect. Perhaps this is not true.

What I am getting at is that if we are going to enforce the violation against a team with only one player left, then logically we should also be enforcing the techincal foul. (If it is one.) Perhaps we should be enforcing neither. I just don't see the justification for enforcing one and not the other.
PS JR, it is not what they are doing that gets the T, but rather what they are NOT doing!

From the Rules Book: "Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule ..."

If A only has one player, they *can't* occupy both spaces. Don't penalize them for that.

Didn't we already have this discussion? Are you just trolling?

[just another ref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins


From the Rules Book: "Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule ..."

If A only has one player, they *can't* occupy both spaces. Don't penalize them for that.

Didn't we already have this discussion? Are you just trolling?

I agree that this was not the intent of this rule and should not apply here. BUT if you do want to go by the book and call a violation here I think there is about a 99% chance that since there is no team A player there, a team B player will step right into that first lane space and here we have a simultaneous violation. Do we enforce that, or not?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by just another ref

I agree that this was not the intent of this rule and should not apply here. BUT if you do want to go by the book and call a violation here I think there is about a 99% chance that since there is no team A player there, a team B player will step right into that first lane space and here we have a simultaneous violation. Do we enforce that, or not? [/B]

There is a 100% chance that you, being a good ref, will
tell the team B player to vacate that space before bouncing
the ball to his teammate.

[just another ref]

My personal opinion here is that in a very rare case such as this, a lot of rules kind of go out the window. I think A1 takes one inside position and the B players can take whatever is left, including the other inside position. If it's about gaining an advantage, I don't see much advantage in taking one position over the other if you are going to be the only one on that side anyway. On a related subject, does anyone else get really tired of having to tell the players where to get on every free throw. "C'mon, line up.
blue, white, blue, no, you two switch. That's it." etc.
Also, so many, even in varsity, just don't get the 1&1 thing. Player makes the first, and they all start down the court. "Excuse me, everybody come back. One more." Something most coaches don't spend a lot of time on?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by just another ref
My personal opinion here is that in a very rare case such as this, a lot of rules kind of go out the window. I think A1 takes one inside position and the B players can take whatever is left, including the other inside position.

I think that if you ever get this sitch in a game,and you let a FT get taken with A1 and B2 in the bottom slots,you had better be hoping that a supervisor isn't watching the game.As Dan said,make 'em line up right before you throw the ball to the free thrower(B1).That's your job!

If you do let the free thrower take a shot with A1 and B2 in the bottom slots,then it is a double violation.Cancel the shot.If it's the first of 2 shots,go to the 2nd shot-and forgoodnessake don't let a B player into a bottom slot again.If it's the 2nd of two,or the first of a 1and1,go with the AP.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I think that if you ever get this sitch in a game,and you let a FT get taken with A1 and B2 in the bottom slots,you had better be hoping that a supervisor isn't watching the game.As Dan said,make 'em line up right before you throw the ball to the free thrower(B1).That's your job!

If you do let the free thrower take a shot with A1 and B2 in the bottom slots,then it is a double violation.Cancel the shot.If it's the first of 2 shots,go to the 2nd shot-and forgoodnessake don't let a B player into a bottom slot again.If it's the 2nd of two,or the first of a 1and1,go with the AP.

Hmmmmmmm....why is it a Double Violation if Team A only has one player left and that player is in the correct position, bottom slot. Is it Team A's fault that the official let a player from Team B fill that vacant bottom slot? Does the one player left on Team A have to do the job of the officials and yell at the player for being in a bottom slot of which Team A has no players to fill?

I agree with the "Common Sense" guys...in this sitch, if you only have one player left, let him/her line up in the bottom slot and keep the other slot vacant...no violations, no delay of game, play ball!

In the event you do have a Team B player take the bottom slot, in this unlikely scenario,...violation Team B! If the rules are going to allow one player to play, we shouldn't make that player also have to officiate!

Dude

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude
[/B]

Hmmmmmmm....why is it a Double Violation if Team A only has one player left and that player is in the correct position, bottom slot. Is it Team A's fault that the official let a player from Team B fill that vacant bottom slot? Does the one player left on Team A have to do the job of the officials and yell at the player for being in a bottom slot of which Team A has no players to fill?

I agree with the "Common Sense" guys...in this sitch, if you only have one player left, let him/her line up in the bottom slot and keep the other slot vacant...no violations, no delay of game, play ball!

In the event you do have a Team B player take the bottom slot, in this unlikely scenario,...violation Team B! If the rules are going to allow one player to play, we shouldn't make that player also have to officiate!

Dude [/B][/QUOTE]Uh,Dude,being a "Common Sense" guy doesn't mean that you get to make up your own rules.
Plain and simple,it is a violation for an opponent of the FT shooter not to fill each lane space adjacent to the end line.That's rule 9-1-2!It is not the officials' fault that a team is down to one player,and we can't change the rules just because we're feeling sorry for them. Just because a team is down to one player and cannot fulfill this obligation doesn't mean that the rule suddenly changes.If you think different,please quote something-anything-from a rule or casebook that will back up your supposition.I'll gaurantee that if you don't call this violation,and the FT shooter misses a foul shot and goes on to lose,you are gonna be one sorry dude.You will have just(possibly)cost a team a game by ignoring a straight forward rule.Good luck at ever working at that school or league again!

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Hmmmmmmm....why is it a Double Violation if Team A only has one player left and that player is in the correct position, bottom slot. Is it Team A's fault that the official let a player from Team B fill that vacant bottom slot? Does the one player left on Team A have to do the job of the officials and yell at the player for being in a bottom slot of which Team A has no players to fill?

I agree with the "Common Sense" guys...in this sitch, if you only have one player left, let him/her line up in the bottom slot and keep the other slot vacant...no violations, no delay of game, play ball!

In the event you do have a Team B player take the bottom slot, in this unlikely scenario,...violation Team B! If the rules are going to allow one player to play, we shouldn't make that player also have to officiate!

Dude [/B]

Uh,Dude,being a "Common Sense" guy doesn't mean that you get to make up your own rules.
Plain and simple,it is a violation for an opponent of the FT shooter not to fill each lane space adjacent to the end line.That's rule 9-1-2!It is not the officials' fault that a team is down to one player,and we can't change the rules just because we're feeling sorry for them. Just because a team is down to one player and cannot fulfill this obligation doesn't mean that the rule suddenly changes.If you think different,please quote something-anything-from a rule or casebook that will back up your supposition.I'll gaurantee that if you don't call this violation,and the FT shooter misses a foul shot and goes on to lose,you are gonna be one sorry dude.You will have just(possibly)cost a team a game by ignoring a straight forward rule.Good luck at ever working at that school or league again! [/B][/QUOTE]

...Ok...let's take a deep breath...I was merely applying what I thought would be the intent of the rules regarding filling in the bottom spaces. If there is no one to fill in the bottom space, it could be reasoned that the Team should not be punished for not filling it. (Seems like "common sense")
I could be wrong...but I gotta tell ya...I would rather have the Team that MISSED the free throw, and going against one player, lose...than to stand there and let an eighth grade girl shoot FT's untill she makes two. Heck, with some of the players I've seen, we could be there all night.
C'mon...wouldn't that be some sort of a travesty to "make" the girl shoot, untill she makes them, because of your interpretation (btw, not unanimous here) of a rule that is not spelled out when concerning one player left in the game.
In this situation...why not just "award" two points?...because in your situation she has to shoot untill she makes two.
Interesting discussion.

Dude