Religious headware

[Dan_ref]

Caref, I don't think you told us what the kids were wearing.

That aside, all you folks that are worried about getting
sued should think about this: if a player has a religous
obligation to wear an article of clothing and you deny him
entry to the game then you are in fact discriminating on
the basis of religion. As such you open yourself and your
association to federal prosecution. All it takes is
one coach who happens to know one creative DA...or even
worse he might know a newspaper reporter looking for
something to fill a column with. And this is much bigger than any civil case will ever be.

Bottom line, let the kid play. If it seems weird, inform
the opposing coach. Almost all coaches will not have a
problem with it, unless the head dress in question happens
to sit on top of a 6'8" 245 lb baskeball machine.

[Tim C]

You and your association are expected to follow WRITTEN rules.

Dan, just quote me ONE legal proceeding that your answer is supported by and I will start new research.

NOT ALLOWING the player to participate would be a correct application of the written rule (FED has already sent this through THEIR legal) IF YOU ALLOW the player to wear, say, a "do rag" because he claims it is "religious in nature" and there is a fight over the color of the RAG then YOU would have a greater liability if you did not have documentation.

Please research things before you give legal advice, that is all I ask.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Tim C
You and your association are expected to follow WRITTEN rules.

Dan, just quote me ONE legal proceeding that your answer is supported by and I will start new research.

NOT ALLOWING the player to participate would be a correct application of the written rule (FED has already sent this through THEIR legal) IF YOU ALLOW the player to wear, say, a "do rag" because he claims it is "religious in nature" and there is a fight over the color of the RAG then YOU would have a greater liability if you did not have documentation.

Please research things before you give legal advice, that is all I ask.

I would start here, I assume you know about google if you need more.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/faq.htm

Specifically:

Q. What are the differences between a civil and a criminal civil rights violation?

A. A criminal violation requires the use or threat of force. Other distinctions between criminal and civil cases brought by the
Government are:

CRIMINAL
CIVIL
Who is charged:
Accused person
Usually an organization
Standard of proof:
Beyond a reasonable doubt
Preponderance of evidence
Fact finder:
Jury
Judge
Victim:
Identified individuals
Individuals and/or representatives of a group or class
Remedy sought:
Prison, fine, restitution, community service
Correct policies and practices, relief for individuals
Govt's right to appeal:
Very limited
Yes


Criminal cases are investigated and prosecuted differently from civil cases. More and stronger evidence is needed to obtain a criminal
conviction than to win a civil suit. Should the defendant be acquitted, the Government has no right of appeal. A federal criminal
conviction also requires a unanimous decision by 12 jurors (or by a judge only if the defendant chooses not to have a jury). Civil
cases are usually heard by a judge, but occasionally a jury will decide the case. Both criminal and civil cases can be resolved without
a trial where both sides agree and with the concurrence of the judge; this is done by a plea agreement in a criminal case and by a
consent decree in a civil suit. In criminal cases, judges must use the Federal Sentencing Guidelines in determining the defendant's
punishment, whereas judges in civil suits may or may not adopt remedies as recommended by the Government when it wins.

Q. If there is no violence or threat of violence, whom should I contact?

A. If no violence is involved, complaints should be submitted in writing to the Civil Rights Division, where it will be forwarded to the
appropriate Section for review. The Division's mailing address is:

Civil Rights Division
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, D.C. 20530

Of course, I'm not a lawyer but I am bright enough to know
that the federal government holds a bit more power than the
NFHS or even the NFHS legal dept. As for do-rags, any idiot
can claim a do-rag is a religious article, and any idiot can
introduce it into an argument concerning the legitimate
wearing of religious articles. Only an idiot would not see
it for what it is: a red herring, a tactic to muddy the
waters in an otherwise simple question, so I will not
entertain any more questions related to do-rags.

If you choose to prevent kids from participating in an organized sport due to their religious beliefs and the
legitimate expression of those beliefs then more power to
you. If I'm the father of such a kid then I'm going to
the DOJ and I'm going to have a lot of questions.

[mick]

The determination of allowance of certain clothing, we can tell from experience, can be made based upon the following guidelines without first having written approval:

If the clothing is similar to what the fans are wearing.

If you are told the clothing is legal and you have a gut feeling it may be.

If the clothing is so strange, it is obvious a kid wouldn't wear it unless he/she had to wear it.

If we have a lingering question, after the game, we can always contact others to see is the item was legal or not.
If it matters to us, we may ask questions, file reports, make phone calls, express our concerns ex post facto.

Yes, Dan, your experience with game management skills shows by allowing the kids to play and not worrying about the paperwork at game time makes the same sense as not checking birth certificates when an opposing coach suggests there is an ineligible player on the other bench.

Good job!

mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
Yes, Dan, your experience with game management skills shows by allowing the kids to play and not worrying about the paperwork at game time makes the same sense as not checking birth certificates when an opposing coach suggests there is an ineligible player on the other bench.

Good job!

Gee,mick,does that mean that Dan is

Or maybe even


Actually,people who have seen him referee say it's more like

[Tim C]

Dan:

I really don't understand one thing you have listed in your "research" post.

My point remains the same.

Please note that I have not commented on if I would aloow or disallow the head wear.

My point remains the same . . . there has never been a legal case finding an official in fault for going by written rules. Please show me ONE case wear an offical was successfully (hell, or even unsuccessfully) held legally responsible when they followed the rules, Please Show Me!

And Dan over many years I have worked players in Jewish league and teams, I have worked games with Mennonites, I have worked all types of religious organized tournaments and have never had an issue with any type clothing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim C
Please note that I have not commented on if I would aloow or disallow the head wear.

What would you do,Tim?

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by mick
Gee,mick,does that mean that Dan is

Or maybe even


Actually,people who have seen him referee say it's more like

Yes, JR,
That is Dan.
Same barber.
Has to eat a lot of soap.
Likes to garden.

[Tim C]

Let me put it this way:

You come out to work an "inter-city" game. It is a varsity game between two rivals.

You look at the court and you see a few players wearing different types of "head wear".

The first kid walks up and says, "Hi My name is Mustafa Boomshea, I am Jewish and I will me wearing my yarmulke tonight. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

The next kid walks up and says, "Hi my name is Myron Weinberg, I belong to the "Church of the Street" and I will be wearing a stocking cap tonight. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

The next kid walks up and says, "Hi my name is Luis Gonzalas, I am a Muslim and I will be wearing this white turbanlike head gear. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

And finally the last kid walks up and says, "Hi my name is Tim O'Connor, I am an Methodist but my church is honoring a member so I will be wearing this red handkerchief on my head tonight. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

So all of you "game managment" experts better do some serious convincing when you accept some and deny others.

The example is ridiculous but so is this discussion.

[mick]

Originally posted by Tim C


So all of you "game managment" experts better do some serious convincing when you accept some and deny others.

The example is ridiculous but so is this discussion.

Yes.
Indeed.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Gee,mick,does that mean that Dan is

Or maybe even


Actually,people who have seen him referee say it's more like

Funny. But I liked you better before you figured out how
to do these image/animation thingies.

BTW, I saw the latest Star Wars movie (Clone Wars or
something like that) on IMAX tonight, it was really great...
lots of action, great graphics, but if it had a plot I
missed it. There were all sorts of weird head dress in that
movie too, at one point I stood up and started screaming
"None of you guys can play! Get out of my movie!! Where's
your letter??!!" Is that a do-rag???!

My wife finally calmed me down.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, JR,
That is Dan.
Same barber.
Has to eat a lot of soap.
Likes to garden.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
/QUOTE]Funny. But I liked you better before you figured out how
to do these image/animation thingies.

It is your,Tony,and Chuck's fault.You guys started this.
NOW YOU MUST SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES!!BE SCARED!!VERY SCARED!!



There were all sorts of weird head dress in that
movie too, at one point I stood up and started screaming
"None of you guys can play! Get out of my movie!! Where's
your letter??!!" Is that a do-rag???![/B]

Now,that's funny.Btw,you can rule on do-rags under headbands,instead of under religious head coverings.No problem taking care of them.

[stan-MI]

Boy, I wish I was a graphics whiz like some of you. But I do know something about civil rights.

The law will allow you as an official to refuse participation to a player with illegal head coverings. The law allows for reasonable restrictions on religious expression when they relate to the public safety. If a city's zoning law can prohibit a Catholic college from erecting the world's largest crucifix, as happened recently in Ann Arbor, MI, you can stop a player from wearing illegal head coverings.

The restrictions on headwear exist for player safety. Also, NFHS rules allow religious head coverings; all the participants need to do is document their case to the state association and obtain written permission. This procedure will eliminate the idiots that falsely claim their "do-rag" is a religious necessity.

Just follow the NFHS rules and you'll be ok.

[Tim C]

Atta Boy, Stanley.

Right on target. And with KNOWLEDGE.