Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735478)

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow backcourt defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has inbounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is inbounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the backcourt defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 agressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the frontcourt with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A3's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735483)

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735483)

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735478)

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow back court defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has in-bounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is in-bounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the back court defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 aggressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the front court with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A2's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

Fed = travel. NCAA = ? ...... "Pivot toes" = LMAO

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

1) This is not a NCAA or NFHS rule, so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

Edit: For the purposes of block/charge and LGP, etc, the FIBA rule is the same as the Fed rule (AFAICT). Having said that, these free FIBA videos are priceless. FIBA Guidelines for Officials: Charging / Blocking on Vimeo

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735500)

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.



Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735483)

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735500)

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.

Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735508)

I'm guessing that the illegal defense occurs when playing defense in A's back court. Slapping the ball away sure sounds like defense to me. Even if B doesn't obtain possession, team A now has less time to avoid a 10-second violation. Blow the whistle, voice the defensive violation, and assess the penalty. If you don't yet have a penalty for this, you can consider to use what we use in my province: Team A gets a front court throw-in at the foul line extended.

If you don't allow back court defense, it sounds to me that A basically gets a free pass to get the ball to their front court (save a traveling or 10-second violation, etc). Even if there is still no in-bounds possession by A, B still cannot intervene. So call the violation.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 735502)

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 735510)

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 735510)

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 735496)

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 735496)

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 735537)

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 735537)

The youth rec league I work has a similar "no pressing" rule that goes like this:
11U: no press at all in the first half. Press allowed in the second half until one team obtains a 10+ point lead. At that point, the leading team cannot press, but the losing team can.

12U - 18U: pressing allowed for any team that isn't leading by 20+ points.

Here's how we interpret it:
If B clearly (in the judgement of the officials) secures possession in their backcourt and makes no attempt to advance toward their frontcourt (in the judgement of the officials), then all of A's players must retreat into their backcourt (B's frontcourt) until B crosses the mid-court line.

If, however, there is any doubt over possession, or if B attempts to advance immediately, all pressing restrictions are off and A is free to play defense in the frontcourt. In other words "If your player runs herself into trouble, that's her fault"

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 735502)

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules.

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 735572)

+1

Much of the time, these leagues/tourneys will say "all high school rules apply" without knowing some of the ones that are drilled into our heads. (Just be prepared for, "well, we didn't mean THAT rule!")

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 735502)

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

Originally Posted by SamIAm (Post 735512)

Mr. dfscott,

Are you using/running an Upward Basketball league?

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 735564)

In the younger leagues we sometimes have to blow the whistle to stop the play and remind the players about the rule (in the heat of battle and all). Thankfully, the coaches are pretty good about it.

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 735572)

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 735609)

I'm not aware of a free place to download the rules. You have a couple of options. Spend about $7 on a book, or contact a local high school official to see if they have any extra copies. IMO, the rules are more suited to your kids' age group.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 735609)

No 10 second rule? Why not? Even if you want to make it 15 seconds, I would still think it's worth keeping the rule.

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735612)

She felt like it added an unnecessary complication and didn't have any faith in our referees enforcing it. We had to beg and plead to get her to agree to 5-second inbound and 5-second closely guarded.

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735612)

I'm fine paying for it, I just didn't see where to do that? When I tried to access online publications, it keeps saying:

ACCESS DENIED. YOU MUST BE LOGGED IN AND BE A MEMBER OF AN NFHS PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION OR STATE STAFF MEMBER.

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735612)

It's a long story, but generally, my wife was trying to keep the rules as simple as possible. She felt like it added an unnecessary complication and didn't have any faith in our referees enforcing it. We had to beg and plead to get her to agree to 5-second inbound and 5-second closely guarded.

To be honest, without any formal training for our refs, I can kind of see her point. Next year will be different (I'm on a mission!) ;)