10 Second Count

[RookieDude]

We had a lot of discussions last night at our meeting...
here is another one that came up.
A1 dribbling backcourt, Referee has count at nine seconds when A1 releases ball, the ball sails in the air for about two seconds before it reaches A2 standing in front court.
Many officials said this is a 10-second backcourt violation...many said they would not call this, they treat it like a throw-in, when the ball leaves the players hand the count stops.
Comments?
Has any official here ever called the backcourt violation when the ball is in the air?

RD

[finnref]

By rule I believe this is a violation because the ball has not achieved front court status until it touches the court or a player in front court. should you call it? If is clearly past your 10 second count, yes.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

4.12 A team is in control .... while a live ball is being passed among teammates...

9.8 A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of a ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

4.4.3 A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or court (bounce pass off the frontcourt would end the count!).

I tend to reward the defense and call the violation even if the pass is in the air. Then again, sometimes I loose track of the count. Ten is a pretty high number!

[Kelvin green]

By strict rule interpretation your situation is BC.
(BTW it is not in the NBA because the ball was in the air and past the mid court line)
You have to use some common sense here. If it's on a long pass and it is down near the basket when caught you are going to have to sell that one awfully hard.

I agree with rewarding good defense but dont bury yourself eithe

[stripes]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
By strict rule interpretation your situation is BC.
(BTW it is not in the NBA because the ball was in the air and past the mid court line)
You have to use some common sense here. If it's on a long pass and it is down near the basket when caught you are going to have to sell that one awfully hard.

I agree with rewarding good defense but dont bury yourself eithe

Kelvin is right. This falls under the catagory of "Looking for Trouble". Use some common sense and don't call the violation if the ball is in the air.

[RookieDude]

...Let's see...I never did get my question answered, "has any official here ever called the backcourt violation when the ball is in the air?"
Or maybe I did...no official here has ever called it!
4 responses:
1. It is a Rule so call the Violation
2. It is a Rule...BUT "I tend to loose track of the count"
3. It is a Rule...BUT "use common sense"
4. It is a Rule...BUT "don't call the violation..."

These responses, surprisingly enough, were about the same as at our association meeting.
Thanks to the 4 that had the guts to respond how they would call, or not call, the violation.
Any other officials care to comment on how they would treat this violation?

FYI, I tend to agree with responses 2-4...and can remember when the ball was in the air, past the mid-court line, and past the 10 second count, my whistle didn't make a "peep".
(But only because my gum got stuck in it)

RD

[devdog69]

Originally posted by RookieDude
...Let's see...I never did get my question answered, "has any official here ever called the backcourt violation when the ball is in the air?"
Or maybe I did...no official here has ever called it!
4 responses:
1. It is a Rule so call the Violation
2. It is a Rule...BUT "I tend to loose track of the count"
3. It is a Rule...BUT "use common sense"
4. It is a Rule...BUT "don't call the violation..."

These responses, surprisingly enough, were about the same as at our association meeting.
Thanks to the 4 that had the guts to respond how they would call, or not call, the violation.
Any other officials care to comment on how they would treat this violation?

FYI, I tend to agree with responses 2-4...and can remember when the ball was in the air, past the mid-court line, and past the 10 second count, my whistle didn't make a "peep".
(But only because my gum got stuck in it)

RD

Well, hey I got an idea, let's just arbitrarily pick which rules we are going to enforce and which ones we are going to use our "common sense" and ignore. I for one am throwing that dern three seconds out the window.

Actually, I agree with most of what everyone has said about being smart and not burying yourself, but I am not going to say I would not call it or don't call it. If I get to 10 on my count, it's probably been 11 or 12 and if the pass is just released when I get to "my 10", I would not hesitate to call it, besides, the coach is not going to know whether I had "10 count, then release" or " release, then 10 count".

[Matt S.]

The fact is, there are many rules that are rarely enforced because of advantage/disadvantage principles-this backcourt situation is one of them.

We had a scenario in our meeting last night where the ball was inbounded just in front of the timeline, A1 passes to unguarded A2, who decides to tip the ball into the backcourt and then pick it up. By rule, this is not backcourt, because team control isn't established on a throwin-however, we said that there was no reason A2 shouldn't have caught the ball, so the violation was called.

Again, I would not call the 10-count, as it will only lead to more trouble.

[RookieDude]

Response number:
5. Its a Rule...BUT, "I agree with responses" but "I am not going to say I would not call it..." note: this guy knows how to speak politically correct.
6. Has "sand" enough to say he would not call it.

RD
(Do not agree with calling violation on throw in example)


[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 20th, 2002 at 06:48 PM]

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Matt S.
The fact is, there are many rules that are rarely enforced because of advantage/disadvantage principles-this backcourt situation is one of them.

We had a scenario in our meeting last night where the ball was inbounded just in front of the timeline, A1 passes to unguarded A2, who decides to tip the ball into the backcourt and then pick it up. By rule, this is not backcourt, because team control isn't established on a throwin-however, we said that there was no reason A2 shouldn't have caught the ball, so the violation was called.

Again, I would not call the 10-count, as it will only lead to more trouble.

Am I reading you correctly? You called a backcourt violation becuase A2 should have caught the ball in the frontcourt but didn't?

If so, do you also give the ball back to A if A2 tips the ball out-of-bounds when he should have easily caught it?

We can't make calls based on what a player could/should have done but only what they actually did. Please don't make up violations that don't exist. That is really causes headaches for everyone. How do we expect the coaches/fans to ever learn anything with such calls.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by RookieDude
...Let's see...I never did get my question answered, "has any official here ever called the backcourt violation when the ball is in the air?"
Or maybe I did...no official here has ever called it!
4 responses:
1. It is a Rule so call the Violation
2. It is a Rule...BUT "I tend to loose track of the count"
3. It is a Rule...BUT "use common sense"
4. It is a Rule...BUT "don't call the violation..."
...
Any other officials care to comment on how they would treat this violation?

FYI, I tend to agree with responses 2-4...and can remember when the ball was in the air, past the mid-court line, and past the 10 second count, my whistle didn't make a "peep".

Yes. I've called it. I've also not called it. I account from some inaccuracy in my count with two basic situations. I tilt the benefit of the doubt in my count's accuracy depending on what is happinging:

1. The defense is appying intense pressure and the offense is scrambling and struggling to get the ball up the court. A pass is in the air when I hit 10 seconds. Tweet. I call it every time. The defense earned it.

2. The defense is laying back, perhaps after applying some initial pressure. The offense is gently and easily bringing the ball up. The ball is mid-pass at 10 seconds. Nothing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Matt S.
We had a scenario in our meeting last night where the ball was inbounded just in front of the timeline, A1 passes to unguarded A2, who decides to tip the ball into the backcourt and then pick it up. By rule, this is not backcourt, because team control isn't established on a throwin-however, we said that there was no reason A2 shouldn't have caught the ball, so the violation was called.

By RULE,there is no violation.But....y'all gonna call a violation anyway.

So...you call a violation when there is no rule saying that it really is a violation.

I get it!You are kidding ,aren't you?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Yes. I've called it. I've also not called it. I account from some inaccuracy in my count with two basic situations. I tilt the benefit of the doubt in my count's accuracy depending on what is happinging:

1. The defense is appying intense pressure and the offense is scrambling and struggling to get the ball up the court. A pass is in the air when I hit 10 seconds. Tweet. I call it every time. The defense earned it.

2. The defense is laying back, perhaps after applying some initial pressure. The offense is gently and easily bringing the ball up. The ball is mid-pass at 10 seconds. Nothing.

I think this is the answer. It's also easier for those of
us who have a shot clock...clock gets to 25 with pressure
and you've got to call it, regardless of where the ball is.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I think this is the answer. It's also easier for those of us who have a shot clock...clock gets to 25 with pressure
and you've got to call it, regardless of where the ball is.

Assuming the girl who's running the shot clock started it correctly, instead of dreaming about the point guard who just drained the last 3.

I was a heckuva point guard, by the way (Chicks dig the long ball!!)

Chuck

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Assuming the girl who's running the shot clock started it correctly, instead of dreaming about the point guard who just drained the last 3.

I was a heckuva point guard, by the way (Chicks dig the long ball!!)

Chuck

If you can take your eyes off the girl at the table you'll
be able to look downcourt & see if the shot clock is at 35
when the ball gets inbounds.