First game, first questions

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Tim C
The WORST advice would be for a SINGLE official to call a double foul.

The BEST advice is to use your best "officials voice" and control the individual issue.

If your voice fails -- pick the VERY next contact between the two and then call it quickly and with confidence.

As an ex-college official and paid evaluator I HATE seeing one single official calling a double foul. In my opinion it shows lack of game control by that official.

Interesting...you say that the Best advice is to use your voice, even though the 2003 NCAA rulebook CLEARLY states "Verbal warnings given to players have proven to be ineffective...officials should not talk to players to try to prevent a foul but should call a foul when one occurs."

You however say to talk to them and if they don't listen, then call the very next foul...how about calling the first one?? How about if that first foul is one where they are both shoving each other then call the double foul??

A double foul shows lack of game control?? It is the fastest way to get the post action under control - both players get the message real quick - and we don't even have to talk to them!!

Any other rules or mechanics you just get rid of in the WAC??

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
[ [/B]

An interesting aside, we varsity coaches get to rate the officials each year, 1 to 10. I gave only one guy a 10 (I was liberal with the 8s and 9s) and it was the only guy who called a double foul last season that I can recall. It was a physical game and his double foul call got the attention of both coaches that it wasn't going to be tolerated. We got the word to our players (that hadn't already figured it out) and the game was much cleaner. That game was better for the double. If it wasn't a double, the girl who believed she got wronged might've been looking to even the score at the other end. [/B][/QUOTE]
__________________________________________________ __________

Interesting rating system. I know in most areas in our State, Coaches don't have any input towards an officials rating.
Our Association, however, does let Coaches rate...Each Varsity Coach rates 20 Officials 1-20, with 1 being the highest(best) and 20 the lowest. If an official in our Association dosen't get rated by that Coach then the official gets a 21. (Lowest number tallied from all schools is the best.)
If a Coach doesn't rate an Official 1-20, then that Official usually does not get assigned to that Coach's school.
In fact, our rating system is 50% peer rating and 50% Coaches rating...so Coaches do have quite a bit of input.

Our peer rating system could probably be better...each Official rates the other Officials ... 25pts.(Can do Varsity and Playoff games) 20 (Can do "Big School" Varsity) 15 (Can do "Small School" Varsity and any J.V.) 10 (Can do J.V.) 5pts. (Can only do Frosh and Middle school)
Here you want a high score, obviously. After you are rated by at least 7 officials, then your total is divided by the amount of Officials that rated you, thus giving you your average.

I saw on this forum where someone stated..."the only thing worse than not having a rating system....is having a rating system." That was good, I hope they didn't mind me borrowing that line the other night.

RD

[Tim C]

As you are aware books often have comments in them that are not really what happens on the floor.

We "encourage" all officials to talk to players on the floor.

We reward common sense.

I think you have gone overboard with your last statement . . . but, for yet another time I will reference two examples of things that developed on the court and then made it to the books:

1) Long ago, when you were probably a pup, there was no signal for the mid-court violation. Officials started using the point from front court to back court gesture. That "eventually" became the signal. It wasn't in "The Book" but it was used even in NCAA playoffs.

2) For decades the three second signal was a horizontal movement across the midsection. Ed Hightower (I believe)started a revolution when he made the call from the side of his body in a vertical movement. That also became the accepted movement BEFORE it ever made it to any manual.

These are just two examples of things that change from what is written in the book.

Just like in Baseball, Basketball has people that take the rule book as the law and try to call exactly as it is written and others call by spirit and intent.

"Talking to players" is an excellent example of what REALLY happens in upper division games. Not only does the WAC condone this activity for officials so does the PAC 10 and the WCAC.

Now lets talk about "things happening at the same time":

We know from studies (the most current done by the NTSB) that the human mind cannot possibly recognize activities that occur in under .0445 seconds (say we refer to "the tie goes to the runner in Baseball" or the exact instant between the ball leaaving the shooters hand and the horn to end a period in Basketball). Therefore it is impossible to recognize which of two fouls happened first OR if they where at the "same instant."

In my expereince as an official and evaluator we would "rather" see an official make a quick, and authoritive call on one of two players rather than two.

An individual official calling a double foul, IN MY OPINION, shows that there was a process that occurred BEFORE this whistle and it should have been handled EARLIER by calling a single foul on one player, or as many fouls as necessary on subsequant trips down the court.

Cleaning up post play is not easy . . . but it can be handled.

Rocky, there are three basic types of officials:

People that call closely ("Hey, REF you going to continue that pitty-patty crap all night!")

People that call advantage-disadvantage ("Hey, REF let's make sure you call it the same BOTH ways!")

People that call no blood-no foul ("Hey, REF they're KILLING each other out there!")

As an evaluator I have never cared which of these you are as long as you call consistently.

Sorry for the long answer, however, you would be graded down for calling a double foul by yourself under the training that I have had.

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 14th, 2002 at 06:18 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim C
[B1) Long ago, when you were probably a pup, there was no signal for the mid-court violation. Officials started using the point from front court to back court gesture. That "eventually" became the signal. It wasn't in "The Book" but it was used even in NCAA playoffs.

2) For decades the three second signal was a horizontal movement across the midsection. Ed Hightower (I believe)started a revolution when he made the call from the side of his body in a vertical movement. That also became the accepted movement BEFORE it ever made it to any manual.

An individual official calling a double foul, IN MY OPINION, shows that there was a process that occurred BEFORE this whistle and it should have been handled EARLIER by calling a single foul on one player, or as many fouls as necessary on subsequant trips down the court.


Sorry for the long answer, however, you would be graded down for calling a double foul by yourself under the training that I have had.

[/B]

1)I've officiated for 44 years.During that time,there have ALWAYS been approved signals for both back-court and 3-second violations.The signals may have changed,but there has always been a signal available.I have also met and worked with a great variety of officials from all over during that 44 years.I have never heard,during this time,of the concept of training officials to not call double fouls.Is this practise indigenous to the wilds of the WAC?

[rockyroad]

I'm not entirely sure what all that long response had to do with the topic (especially the part about me being a pup - that was a long time ago), but oh well...I agree there are some things in the book that aren't "real life" on the court, but for God's sake, when it's in the POE for the NCAA then it better be done that way...and if you are marking people up or down in your evals contrary to what the POE's are - well...not much to say about that...

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Tim C
Sorry for the long answer, however, you would be graded down for calling a double foul by yourself under the training that I have had.

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 14th, 2002 at 06:18 PM]

Tim --

I'm obviously not as experienced as you, so perhaps I'm missing something. What does it mean for "a single official to call a double foul?" How else could a double foul be called, except by a single official?

Wait, a dim light is beginning to glow in the very dark empty... Ah. You're saying, save the double foul as a last resort on a double whistle? My assignor doesn't like the double either, but he doesn't go quite that far.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

Wait, a dim light is beginning to glow in the very dark empty... Ah. You're saying, save the double foul as a last resort on a double whistle? My assignor doesn't like the double either, but he doesn't go quite that far.
[/B][/QUOTE]Juulie,Tim is basically saying that an official should NEVER call a double foul,under ANY circumstances.

[rainmaker]

Note into little book: When I get to the WAC, no more double fouls!! At least, not when Tim is evaluating...

[mick]

Originally posted by Sleeper
One of the things I noticed in the game was some verbiage exchanged before and during the extracurricular activity. There was no violation/foul (profanity, etc.), just competitive play that escalated (deteriorated?) into both players committing fouls. It sounds like a double foul may be a good idea, while watching for a defensive or offensive infractions that could escalate.

Well, Sleeper.
If you are inclined to use the double foul, as newer officials are, make sure you know the proper administration of it before you go out on the court.
mick

[Sleeper]

Second game last night. Worked with an experienced official (15 years). His opinion was call the double foul if a double foul exists. We worked a big school (5A), JV Boys game, which was very fast and very physical. I talked to the players most of the night and watched the post play more carefully. Called pushes and holds, but never had to call the double.

At least in last night's game, there WERE things going on that could have precipitated a double foul, but I was able to call the first foul and better evaluate what was really going on.

One of the biggest differences was working with an experienced official. We had a pregame conference and at each quarter and timeout he gave me another couple of things to work on.

I have a girls tournament this weekend, so I am anxious to see how the theories apply there.

Mick, the double foul is reported and then the ball goes with the possession arrow. Correct?

[mick]

Originally posted by Sleeper

Mick, the double foul is reported and then the ball goes with the possession arrow. Correct?

Dunno, Sleeper.
I'd have to look it U.P.

mick

As you noted, sometimes it is quite easy to see "the first foul" when we concentrate.

[NCAAREF]

Double foul is the correct call, but you don't go to the arrow. Give the ball back to the offense with no reset of the shot clock.

[Tim Roden]

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Double foul is the correct call, but you don't go to the arrow. Give the ball back to the offense with no reset of the shot clock.

AT the NCAA level, this is true. In a NF game, use the arrow.