First game, first questions

[Sleeper]

First game last night, first questions today:

First question: During free throws, the players from both teams had their arms extended into the lane to gain position. Arms were still, so I didn't call a violation. I started second guessing myself last night after the game. Was the no-call correct?

Second question: Two post players were getting pretty physical under the basket on both ends, while each team was running the offense. B had hold of A's arm and A was doing the "Shaq bump" to gain position on A. Didn't know who to call the foul on, so I didn't call. Is this a double foul or is it part of the game? No real advantage was gained, as both players were doing it. I did call other fouls on both throughout the night for blocking and holding.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Sleeper
First game last night, first questions today:

First question: During free throws, the players from both teams had their arms extended into the lane to gain position. Arms were still, so I didn't call a violation. I started second guessing myself last night after the game. Was the no-call correct?

Yeah, correct.

Second question: Two post players were getting pretty physical under the basket on both ends, while each team was running the offense. B had hold of A's arm and A was doing the "Shaq bump" to gain position on A. Didn't know who to call the foul on, so I didn't call. Is this a double foul or is it part of the game? No real advantage was gained, as both players were doing it. I did call other fouls on both throughout the night for blocking and holding.

POE (again!) is rough play in the post. The hold's a foul.
The bump's a foul. TWEEET! Double foul, go with the arrow. Some folks will say to try & talk them out of it, some folks will say not to. I think this year I'm gonna not
be a talker (I'll let you know how it goes!)

How old are these kids?

[Sleeper]

Kids were high school JV girls, pretty big school. It really started in the last part of the second period and went through the entire second half. I knew it was a POE, but I wasn't sure at what point to call it. Does the "call it early and often" theory apply?

[Tim Roden]

In this situation, I would try to call it on the first person I see doing something. A double foul is when you didn't see who initiated the action. Holding the arm is a definite foul.

As far as talking to the players. I would learn how to do it. Talk to them once. Blow the whistle the second time. You'll get your point across.

Do it early and all game long. Don't start to pay attention to it in the fourth quarter. It is too late.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

POE (again!) is rough play in the post. The hold's a foul.
The bump's a foul. TWEEET! Double foul, go with the arrow. Some folks will say to try & talk them out of it, some folks will say not to. I think this year I'm gonna not
be a talker (I'll let you know how it goes!)

How old are these kids?

Dan,
I agree with your talk/call non-consensus.

I look at the tone of the contact early in the game.
When the contact is *way off ball* (the ball is high or on the other side of the post players) and the defender is grabbing/touching/pushing the post player without the ball I am inclined to talk.

Usually, the talking does no good, yet I make an attempt to let 'em know they have my attention. I like to let them know that I won't tolerate certain stuff. Since all of us officials judge things differently, I like to mention the parameters then, as opposed to the captain's meeting where I go over no rules.

From that point, I call.

mick

[mick]

Originally posted by Sleeper

Second question: Two post players were getting pretty physical under the basket on both ends, while each team was running the offense. B had hold of A's arm and A was doing the "Shaq bump" to gain position on A. Didn't know who to call the foul on, so I didn't call. Is this a double foul or is it part of the game? No real advantage was gained, as both players were doing it. I did call other fouls on both throughout the night for blocking and holding.

Sleeper,

If you are uncomfortable with the contact, but you are not sure who went first, any call, or Ref speak, will clean it up.
If a player, or coach, complains on "who did what first", just tell 'em I'm getting the other guy/gal next.
And then look for it.

As you know, without some official intervention, the activitiy will escalate.

mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Kids were high school JV girls, pretty big school. It really started in the last part of the second period and went through the entire second half. I knew it was a POE, but I wasn't sure at what point to call it. Does the "call it early and often" theory apply?

Absolutely. In your case I might have discussed this with
my partner during the half and came out looking for it to
start the second half.

[PublicBJ]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
A double foul is when you didn't see who initiated the action.

Wow, that statement made my eyebrows jump up. I don't think that's what the rulemakers had in mind when they came up with a double foul.

---

IMO, a double foul is a great way to clean up this post play early in the game, if they are both banging away at each other like they're in the NBA. If one player is definately the culprit, get 'em for it. If they're both banging away, maybe talk to them, but get them with the double if you have to. Coaches (okay, smart coaches) will know exactly what you're doing, and won't have a problem with the double foul.

Just don't wait until the fourth quarter to call it, unless you plain have to.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Dan,
I agree with your talk/call non-consensus.

I look at the tone of the contact early in the game.
When the contact is *way off ball* (the ball is high or on the other side of the post players) and the defender is grabbing/touching/pushing the post player without the ball I am inclined to talk.

Yeah, me too, this is what I might try and do less of this
season. Gets their attention really quickly. We'll see how it goes

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Yeah, me too, this is what I might try and do less of this
season. Gets their attention really quickly. We'll see how it goes

Now, ... I don't talk a lot.

"Get yer hands off."
"Take it easy in there."
"Clean it up."
"No forearm."

I don't present a dissertation.

They hear me, or not.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Now, ... I don't talk a lot.

"Get yer hands off."
"Take it easy in there."
"Clean it up."
"No forearm."

I don't present a dissertation.

They hear me, or not.
mick

Pretty much the way I handle it when I talk to them. But I've been hearing "let your whistle do your talking" a lot lately...figure I oughta give it a try. :-)

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Pretty much the way I handle it when I talk to them. But I've been hearing "let your whistle do your talking" a lot lately...figure I oughta give it a try. :-)

That certainly works. ...Right from the get-go.

[stripes]

Originally posted by PublicBJ

Wow, that statement made my eyebrows jump up. I don't think that's what the rulemakers had in mind when they came up with a double foul.

---

IMO, a double foul is a great way to clean up this post play early in the game, if they are both banging away at each other like they're in the NBA. If one player is definately the culprit, get 'em for it. If they're both banging away, maybe talk to them, but get them with the double if you have to. Coaches (okay, smart coaches) will know exactly what you're doing, and won't have a problem with the double foul.

Just don't wait until the fourth quarter to call it, unless you plain have to.

I gotta disagree. IMO, calling a double foul is a bailout on our part. Usually we didn't see who started it and both players have committed fouls, so we call a double. That is not to say that it is wrong to do, but the supervisors I work for want the first foul called. They definitely don't like the double called. Almost always, you can get one guy at one end and the other guy at the other end.

With regards to talking to players, I will do it one time in the first quarter and then I blow the whistle. My experience is that players respond very well to the whistle and not very well to the voice.

[Edited by stripes on Nov 13th, 2002 at 11:11 AM]

[rainmaker]

When one player is always beating the other down the court and getting position, and then the other is trying to move the opponent, call it on the first contact. But what I often see, is that they arrive about together, and the contact is initiated by both, and is hard to pin on one person. I had an evaluator at camp recommend a philosophy which I'm going to try this year. He said, when it's the same two players at both ends play after play, call on team A when they're on defense, then next trip team B defense. If they still haven't learned, team A offense, and if necessary, team B offense. At this point, if one player complains that "she's doing it too!" you respond, "Don't worry, when she does it, I'll call it" and then do just that!

If that STILL doesn't clean it up, call the double. At that point they will most likely both be pulled (three fouls each, and screwing up the plays!). So, defense, defense, offense, offense, double. Be sure you're switching on fouls so that it's always you, or be sure you pre-game this with partner, and work extra-closely together. It would be conceivable to pull this off in the first quarter, and it would make a big difference. At least, that's the theory I'm going to work on these first few games. We'll see how it goes.

[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 14th, 2002 at 10:51 AM]

[Sleeper]

That sounds like a good idea. I like the D, D, O, O, Double patern early in the game. The next time it happens, I will try it and see how far down the patern I get. I plan on doing a better pregame with my co-official tonight, as well.