First game, first questions

[JThompson]

Ok guys, had a well respected vet address this issue at an association meeting lately. He said he would blow the whistle for a double foul, tell each of them that if they kept it up, he would only have to blow it four more times (double fouls again) and foul them both out, or they can clean it up.

He claims it works.

I don't know since I am first year (and ready to go!)

John

[Sleeper]

That may work, as well, but I think I am going to try the other first. Some of the veterans I have spoken with have indicated that the double should be saved as a last resort, kind of like the double personal or UC in football.

[Tim C]

The WORST advice would be for a SINGLE official to call a double foul.

The BEST advice is to use your best "officials voice" and control the individual issue.

If your voice fails -- pick the VERY next contact between the two and then call it quickly and with confidence.

As an ex-college official and paid evaluator I HATE seeing one single official calling a double foul. In my opinion it shows lack of game control by that official.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Tim C
The WORST advice would be for a SINGLE official to call a double foul.

The BEST advice is to use your best "officials voice" and control the individual issue.

If your voice fails -- pick the VERY next contact between the two and then call it quickly and with confidence.

As an ex-college official and paid evaluator I HATE seeing one single official calling a double foul. In my opinion it shows lack of game control by that official.

I disagree. The evaluators that are paid to evaluate me
disagree. And the people who pay me and the evaluators
disagree. Double fouls are (to quote a well known
inside trader) "a good thing". Further, the "best" advice
is often to evaluate each of these situations as they
present themselves. Sometimes you can talk players out
of being stupid, sometimes you can't.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by rainmaker
But what I often see, is that they arrive about together, and the contact is initiated by both, and is hard to pin on one person. I had an evaluator at camp recommend a philosophy which I'm going to try this year. He said, when it's the same two players at both ends play after play, call on team A when they're on defense, then next trip team B defense.[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 14th, 2002 at 10:51 AM]

If they arrive together, and the contact is initiated by both (your words) why not just call the double foul in the first place! The more times I read this, the angrier it makes me. Maybe my talented player and the opponents' thug are getting into it. Hang three (THREE!) on both of them and we lose. Call what you see. Don't be afraid to call something because "that's not how it's done", like a double foul. Besides, the double foul sends that message (this type of post play will not be tolerated) right away. Forget the cute mnemonics (D, D, O, O, double) and call what you see.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

If they arrive together, and the contact is initiated by both (your words) why not just call the double foul in the first place! The more times I read this, the angrier it makes me. Maybe my talented player and the opponents' thug are getting into it. Hang three (THREE!) on both of them and we lose. Call what you see. Don't be afraid to call something because "that's not how it's done", like a double foul. Besides, the double foul sends that message (this type of post play will not be tolerated) right away. Forget the cute mnemonics (D, D, O, O, double) and call what you see.

I agree. A double foul is a double foul. They happen.
Call it. And it works, no need for that "I got one for you
here and you're gonna get one down there" stuff. It's like
giving a good hard yank on a puppy's choke collar. Gets
his attention right away.

[Tim C]

I will disagree until my death . . .

When I evaluate (and my partners who evaluate) would ding an official if he called both fouls on the double foul.

I will leave with this thought . . . things DO NOT happen at the same time . . . something always happens first.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Tim C
I will disagree until my death . . .

When I evaluate (and my partners who evaluate) would ding an official if he called both fouls on the double foul.

I will leave with this thought . . . things DO NOT happen at the same time . . . something always happens first.

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter
how wrong it is FWIW, I have never had a problem
calling a double foul, from a player, coach, observer or supervisor.

[Tim C]

It wouldn't fly in your eval in the WAC, trust me on that one.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Tim C
It wouldn't fly in your eval in the WAC, trust me on that one.

Well, when I apply I'll remember not to ask Tim C for a referral. Trust me on that one.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Tim C
I will disagree until my death . . .

When I evaluate (and my partners who evaluate) would ding an official if he called both fouls on the double foul.

I will leave with this thought . . . things DO NOT happen at the same time . . . something always happens first.

Respectfully, you are saying two different things here. Your phrase "would ding an official if he called both fouls on the double foul" implies that there WAS a double foul. I'd ding you if you ignored one and called one even though YOU JUDGED IT TO BE A DOUBLE FOUL.

However, I don't disagree with your phrase "something always happens first". If you judge a foul to have happened, making the ball dead, and subsequent action that would be a foul if the ball were live but not warranting a technical, then I have no problem with you calling one foul.

I'm saying don't ARBITRARILY (sp?) hit the defense on this trip and the next one, then the offense on the next two trips because that's what comes next in your "clean it up" sequence. If you see one first, call one. If you see them at the same time, call both.

An interesting aside, we varsity coaches get to rate the officials each year, 1 to 10. I gave only one guy a 10 (I was liberal with the 8s and 9s) and it was the only guy who called a double foul last season that I can recall. It was a physical game and his double foul call got the attention of both coaches that it wasn't going to be tolerated. We got the word to our players (that hadn't already figured it out) and the game was much cleaner. That game was better for the double. If it wasn't a double, the girl who believed she got wronged might've been looking to even the score at the other end.

[devdog69]

I have called a few double fouls over the past couple of years and in every case I remember, it was a situation where I verbally warned both players to knock it off and got absolutely no response from either one, both just kept on shoving, so they both got a foul and a sharp message that if I talk they had better heed what I say to them or the whistle will be right behind. I do not make it a habit to "try to talk them out of the foul" , but if I think it will help it is another method that I may use to help my game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim C

When I evaluate (and my partners who evaluate) would ding an official if he called both fouls on the double foul.

I will leave with this thought . . . things DO NOT happen at the same time . . . something always happens first.

The "something" that happens first may not warrant a whistle at that time.We have no idea on a play what may escalate into something that we have to control.Each complete play has to be judged strictly on it's merits.When they start banging each other and you want to clean it up,you can't go back to something that you ignored at the start of the banging,and call it now.Double fouls are a tool for an official to use.Always have been.I don't agree with your concept at all,Tim.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 14th, 2002 at 05:37 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Tim C
I will leave with this thought . . . things DO NOT happen at the same time . . . something always happens first.

Au contraire - it's not a foul until you judge it to be a foul (or fouls, in this case).

[Sleeper]

One of the things I noticed in the game was some verbiage exchanged before and during the extracurricular activity. There was no violation/foul (profanity, etc.), just competitive play that escalated (deteriorated?) into both players committing fouls. It sounds like a double foul may be a good idea, while watching for a defensive or offensive infractions that could escalate.