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-   -   Principle of Verticality (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/62453-principle-verticality.html)

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729973)
I have to wonder if it's more like blatant ignorance, rather than misunderstanding. Otherwise, why would we get the "set" argument if they even know about verticality?

Because, while the terms are linked in the book, they aren't linked in the minds of most players and coaches. When they argue a player wasn't set, verticality is rarely an issue anyway because the player was moving sideways or backwards (usually).

I have never heard a coach argue a defender was moving when he simply jumped vertically.

Jurassic Referee Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729963)
"Not" should be "knocked."

Nope. He was talking about trees. That means "not" should be "knot", woodn't it?

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 729977)
Nope. He was talking about trees. That means "not" should be "knot", woodn't it?

I'll have to ask Woody next time I see him.

NoFussRef Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:13pm

Would you call an offensive foul if they only shaved a lil bark?

Subsequently:
If a tree FLOPS in the lane but no one is around to hear it....:rolleyes:

bob jenkins Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729979)
I'll have to ask Woody next time I see him.

Don't bother. He's an ash and will just tell you to leaf.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729976)
Because, while the terms are linked in the book, they aren't linked in the minds of most players and coaches. When they argue a player wasn't set, verticality is rarely an issue anyway because the player was moving sideways or backwards (usually).

I have never heard a coach argue a defender was moving when he simply jumped vertically.

Nor I.

My point is, I don't believe this is a misunderstood rule. I believe that some don't know this principle exists at all (hence word "ignorance"). In other words, they believe you can't draw a charge if you're in the air.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729996)
Nor I.

My point is, I don't believe this is a misunderstood rule. I believe that some don't know this principle exists at all (hence word "ignorance"). In other words, they believe you can't draw a charge if you're in the air.

I disagree. I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays. They understand it, but only choose to play ignorant when it suits them.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730002)
I disagree. I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays. They understand it, but only choose to play ignorant when it suits them.

That could be. I wonder if they know that "straight up" doesn't require both feet on the floor at the time of contact, though.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730008)
That could be. I wonder if they know that "straight up" doesn't require both feet on the floor at the time of contact, though.

That's a legitimate question. But if they don't, I guess that would make the rule "misunderstood."

tref Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730002)
I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays.

Funny how they always appear to be "straight up" after the contact.

Raymond Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 729951)
Is this the must misunderstood rule in the book? It seems that all coach see is the contact...not who caused it...just the contact...not if the defender had LGP and good verticality...just the contact.

Those same coaches are the ones who will tell their defender jumped straight up and down or was just standing there with their hands up.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 730013)
Funny how they always appear to be "straight up" after the contact.

LOL, and sometimes even right before the contact. But definitely after the whistle blows and they want to show you what they were doing.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730012)
That's a legitimate question. But if they don't, I guess that would make the rule "misunderstood."

Maybe. I believe "misunderstood" means knowing a rule exists, but not knowing its meaning or how it works. I believe that some don't know verticality exists at all, and that goes well beyond misunderstanding. That's ignorance.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729996)
Nor I.

My point is, I don't believe this is a misunderstood rule. I believe that some don't know this principle exists at all (hence word "ignorance"). In other words, they believe you can't draw a charge if you're in the air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730002)
I disagree. I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays. They understand it, but only choose to play ignorant when it suits them.

How in the world do you go from this response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730008)
That could be. I wonder if they know that "straight up" doesn't require both feet on the floor at the time of contact, though.

To this one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730022)
Maybe. I believe "misunderstood" means knowing a rule exists, but not knowing its meaning or how it works. I believe that some don't know verticality exists at all, and that goes well beyond misunderstanding. That's ignorance.

I personally think they all (95% of players and coaches) know about verticality but simply misunderstand it. Some of them plead ignorance when such ignorance would warrant a foul in their favor.

Again, I get far more compaints when I call fouls on defenders who aren't vertical than when I don't call something against a legal defender. Even when I do get complaints about non-calls, "he was straight up" virtually always satisfies the coach. He knows the rule, he just wants me to forget it when it's convenient for him.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 06:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730027)
How in the world do you go from this response:.....To this one?

Must be your awesome power of persuasion, Snaqs! :D


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