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GoodwillRef Mon Feb 14, 2011 01:43pm
Principle of Verticality
 
Is this the must misunderstood rule in the book? It seems that all coach see is the contact...not who caused it...just the contact...not if the defender had LGP and good verticality...just the contact.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 01:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 729951)
Is this the must misunderstood rule in the book? It seems that all coaches see is the contact...not who caused it...just the contact...not if the defender had LGP and good verticality...just the contact.
Oh, they understand it when they want to. Just call a foul on a vertical defender and watch his coach expose his knowledge.

sportsref Mon Feb 14, 2011 01:51pm
Principle of Verticality
 
Goodwill...I totally agree with you! I have had many coaches say the same thing. I even had a player said it on Saturday. I told her don't go in there with the trees and expect me to have firewood for you after you get not down....she laughed!

GoodwillRef Mon Feb 14, 2011 01:55pm
Usually hear comments like:

"There was a lot of body on that play."

"Are you telling me there wasn't any contact down there on that shot?"

Freddy Mon Feb 14, 2011 01:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsref (Post 729956)
. . . and expect me to have firewood for you after you get not down . . .
I understand the principle of verticality, but am having trouble with this sentence. Or is it just me?

GoodwillRef Mon Feb 14, 2011 01:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 729958)
I understand the principal of verticality, but am having trouble with this sentence. Or is it just me?
Don't think that terminology is actually in the rulebook...;)

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 729957)
"Are you telling me there wasn't any contact down there on that shot?"
"No, but I'm telling you there wasn't a foul on that shot."

NoFussRef Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 729959)
Don't think that terminology is actually in the rulebook...;)
Gradee-ated from Principal University.

Majored in Verticality Principles, minor in Zebra Biology. :D

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 729958)
I understand the principal of verticality, but am having trouble with this sentence. Or is it just me?
"Not" should be "knocked."

tref Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:08pm
Coach: Why is that not a foul?
Me: Because this is not 6th grade girls basketball...

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 729964)
Coach: Why is that not a foul?
Me: Because this is not competitive 6th grade girls basketball...
Fixed it all nice and shiny like.

Freddy Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:13pm
Conversation You'd Never Hear . . .
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 729964)
Coach: Why is that not a foul?
Me: Because this is not 6th grade girls basketball...
Coach: Why is that not a foul?
Me: It was, coach, but I didn't call it because I felt you haven't been paying attention to me lately.

Scrapper1 Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 729957)
"Are you telling me there wasn't any contact down there on that shot?"
"Of course there was, Coach. And your player caused it."

That is my actual response to that question.

bob jenkins Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 729969)
"Of course there was, Coach. And your player caused it."

That is my actual response to that question.
I've used that.

I've also used "Yes, but defense had good position" and "Yes, but it didn't rise tothe level of a foul"

(And some combination of all of that)

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 729951)
Is this the must misunderstood rule in the book?
I have to wonder if it's more like blatant ignorance, rather than misunderstanding. Otherwise, why would we get the "set" argument if they even know about verticality?

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729973)
I have to wonder if it's more like blatant ignorance, rather than misunderstanding. Otherwise, why would we get the "set" argument if they even know about verticality?
Because, while the terms are linked in the book, they aren't linked in the minds of most players and coaches. When they argue a player wasn't set, verticality is rarely an issue anyway because the player was moving sideways or backwards (usually).

I have never heard a coach argue a defender was moving when he simply jumped vertically.

Jurassic Referee Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729963)
"Not" should be "knocked."
Nope. He was talking about trees. That means "not" should be "knot", woodn't it?

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 729977)
Nope. He was talking about trees. That means "not" should be "knot", woodn't it?
I'll have to ask Woody next time I see him.

NoFussRef Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:13pm
Would you call an offensive foul if they only shaved a lil bark?

Subsequently:
If a tree FLOPS in the lane but no one is around to hear it....:rolleyes:

bob jenkins Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729979)
I'll have to ask Woody next time I see him.
Don't bother. He's an ash and will just tell you to leaf.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729976)
Because, while the terms are linked in the book, they aren't linked in the minds of most players and coaches. When they argue a player wasn't set, verticality is rarely an issue anyway because the player was moving sideways or backwards (usually).

I have never heard a coach argue a defender was moving when he simply jumped vertically.
Nor I.

My point is, I don't believe this is a misunderstood rule. I believe that some don't know this principle exists at all (hence word "ignorance"). In other words, they believe you can't draw a charge if you're in the air.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729996)
Nor I.

My point is, I don't believe this is a misunderstood rule. I believe that some don't know this principle exists at all (hence word "ignorance"). In other words, they believe you can't draw a charge if you're in the air.
I disagree. I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays. They understand it, but only choose to play ignorant when it suits them.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730002)
I disagree. I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays. They understand it, but only choose to play ignorant when it suits them.
That could be. I wonder if they know that "straight up" doesn't require both feet on the floor at the time of contact, though.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730008)
That could be. I wonder if they know that "straight up" doesn't require both feet on the floor at the time of contact, though.
That's a legitimate question. But if they don't, I guess that would make the rule "misunderstood."

tref Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730002)
I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays.
Funny how they always appear to be "straight up" after the contact.

Raymond Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 729951)
Is this the must misunderstood rule in the book? It seems that all coach see is the contact...not who caused it...just the contact...not if the defender had LGP and good verticality...just the contact.
Those same coaches are the ones who will tell their defender jumped straight up and down or was just standing there with their hands up.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 730013)
Funny how they always appear to be "straight up" after the contact.
LOL, and sometimes even right before the contact. But definitely after the whistle blows and they want to show you what they were doing.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730012)
That's a legitimate question. But if they don't, I guess that would make the rule "misunderstood."
Maybe. I believe "misunderstood" means knowing a rule exists, but not knowing its meaning or how it works. I believe that some don't know verticality exists at all, and that goes well beyond misunderstanding. That's ignorance.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 05:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729996)
Nor I.

My point is, I don't believe this is a misunderstood rule. I believe that some don't know this principle exists at all (hence word "ignorance"). In other words, they believe you can't draw a charge if you're in the air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730002)
I disagree. I've heard more complaints of "wasn't he straight up" than "he was moving" on these plays. They understand it, but only choose to play ignorant when it suits them.
How in the world do you go from this response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730008)
That could be. I wonder if they know that "straight up" doesn't require both feet on the floor at the time of contact, though.
To this one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730022)
Maybe. I believe "misunderstood" means knowing a rule exists, but not knowing its meaning or how it works. I believe that some don't know verticality exists at all, and that goes well beyond misunderstanding. That's ignorance.
I personally think they all (95% of players and coaches) know about verticality but simply misunderstand it. Some of them plead ignorance when such ignorance would warrant a foul in their favor.

Again, I get far more compaints when I call fouls on defenders who aren't vertical than when I don't call something against a legal defender. Even when I do get complaints about non-calls, "he was straight up" virtually always satisfies the coach. He knows the rule, he just wants me to forget it when it's convenient for him.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 06:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730027)
How in the world do you go from this response:.....To this one?
Must be your awesome power of persuasion, Snaqs! :D

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 06:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730056)
Must be your awesome power of persuasion, Snaqs! :D
Maybe, but you went backwards.

BillyMac Mon Feb 14, 2011 06:28pm
Stick 'Em Up ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 730013)
Funny how they always appear to be "straight up" after the contact.
Like the players who reach outside their plane of verticality and foul a shooter, and then as the whistle sounds, put up their hands up like someone is holding a gun on them?

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...f9390b33bffb11

zeedonk Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729996)

In other words, they believe you can't draw a charge if you're in the air.

Called one of these earlier in the year. A1 driving to the cup, B1 comes over and established LGP, then, inexplicably, jumps straight up in the air as A1 tries to run through the middle of his chest. Going the other way- Entire A team coaching staff erupts (all 5 of them). I report PC foul and say to HC, "he had LGP, your guy ran him over" and go opposite. Partner inbounds and after an OOB by the bench winds up warning staff. Nothing further, but I spoke with AC after the game, whom I know pretty well, and says "how the hell can you call a charge on a guy when the defender is in the air?" I reply "veritcality". He says "Oh, OK.... wait- what?" Repeat.

Z

GoodwillRef Tue Feb 15, 2011 06:46am
I think one of the factors contributing to this is that schools are hiring younger and younger coaches these days. We are seeing coaches in their early to mid twenties being hired as varsity head coaches and they are so overwhelmed with everything else about the job they do not have the time to read or understand the rules.

Last year we had a 24 year old girls varsity coach yelling at us from the opening tip...I warned her after 26 seconds...not another word the rest of the game. I thought I was working a 5th grade game they way she was yelling for stuff.

rwest Tue Feb 15, 2011 07:27am
Yeah,
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730060)
Maybe, but you went backwards.
But did he have LGP?

26 Year Gap Tue Feb 15, 2011 08:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 729977)
Nope. He was talking about trees. That means "not" should be "knot", woodn't it?
Bad Woddy. Bad, bad Woddy.

26 Year Gap Tue Feb 15, 2011 08:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730012)
That's a legitimate question. But if they don't, I guess that would make the rule "misunderstood."
They understand it if it is THEIR player on defense.

bainsey Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeedonk (Post 730136)
"how the hell can you call a charge on a guy when the defender is in the air?" I reply "veritcality". He says "Oh, OK.... wait- what?" Repeat.
There it is. This is what I believe to be one of the many myths we battle.

Adam Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730248)
There it is. This is what I believe to be one of the many myths we battle.
Yep, but his response indicates he's aware of the rule but not overly familiar with it's applications.

My guess is that LGP is more likely the rule they aren't even aware of, whereas they're simply confused about verticality.

bainsey Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730252)
Yep, but his response indicates he's aware of the rule but not overly familiar with it's applications.
I don't know about that. Let's find out.

Hey Zeedonk, would you say the AC was completely ignorant of the verticality concept?

26 Year Gap Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:58am
One of the common plays that involves the principle of verticality is when the offensive player has the ball either under the backboard or behind it and leaps back to make a try at the hoop. The defender goes straight up and there is contact. I've got nothing or I've got an offensive foul.

Adam Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730253)
I don't know about that. Let's find out.

Hey Zeedonk, would you say the AC was completely ignorant of the verticality concept?
Good grief. Try this little experiment.

Next time a defender contacts a shooter while vertical, call the foul. I can virtually guarantee the coach will cry that his defender was vertical.

I was taught verticality by a subpar middle school coach back in the 80s. Commentators use the terminology all the time on TV. People know of the concept/principal, even if they don't understand it.

Judtech Tue Feb 15, 2011 01:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 729967)
Coach: Why is that not a foul?
Me: It was, coach, but I didn't call it because I felt you haven't been paying attention to me lately.
Coach: "Why wasn't that a foul"?
Me: " Because you have the advantage in the foul count and in the first half you asked me to even the fouls up. Geez, make up your mind

Scuba_ref Tue Feb 15, 2011 04:08pm
Post of the week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech (Post 730309)
Coach: "Why wasn't that a foul"?
Me: " Because you have the advantage in the foul count and in the first half you asked me to even the fouls up. Geez, make up your mind
I know it is still early in the week...but this is beautiful.

zeedonk Tue Feb 15, 2011 05:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730253)
I don't know about that. Let's find out.
Hey Zeedonk, would you say the AC was completely ignorant of the verticality concept?
No, I don't believe he was... I think he's aware of it, but I suppose that call isn't made very often, and when it is, everyone who doesn't know the rule stops for a second and replays it in their mind and decides that the call should be a block, because the defender was airborne...

I think in general, the coaches will acknowledge verticality when it takes the form of their defender standing and holding his/her arms straight up. It totally throws them for a loss when the defender becomes airborne, and I guarantee that if I make that call and their guy is on defense, the HC or AC will turn to the next coach in line and snicker "boy he screwed up that call didn't he? I mean our guy was way up in the air! Hee Hee!"

Like I said in my post, I have no idea why the defender jumped in the air, but he did and I'm pretty sure if I blew the call and called a block because I wasn't expecting him to jump, nobody would have said boo...

Z

bainsey Tue Feb 15, 2011 05:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeedonk (Post 730447)
No, I don't believe he was... I think he's aware of it, but I suppose that call isn't made very often, and when it is, everyone who doesn't know the rule stops for a second and replays it in their mind and decides that the call should be a block, because the defender was airborne...
"Misunderstood" wins, then. Thanks.

Adam Tue Feb 15, 2011 05:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeedonk (Post 730447)
Like I said in my post, I have no idea why the defender jumped in the air, but he did and I'm pretty sure if I blew the call and called a block because I wasn't expecting him to jump, nobody would have said boo...

Z
They would have around here.

Jurassic Referee Tue Feb 15, 2011 05:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeedonk (Post 730447)
1) No, I don't believe he was... I think he's aware of it, but I suppose that call isn't made very often, and when it is, <font color = red>everyone who doesn't know the rule stops for a second and replays it in their mind and decides that the call should be a block, because the defender was airborne...</font>

I think in general, the coaches will acknowledge verticality when it takes the form of their defender standing and holding his/her arms straight up. It totally throws them for a loss when the defender becomes airborne, and I guarantee that if I make that call and their guy is on defense, <font color = red>the HC or AC will turn to the next coach in line and snicker "boy he screwed up that call didn't he? I mean our guy was way up in the air! Hee Hee!"</font>

Like I said in my post, I have no idea why the defender jumped in the air, but he did and I'm pretty sure <font color = red>if I blew the call and called a block because I wasn't expecting him to jump, nobody would have said boo...</font>
Regarding the highlighted sentences, from an official's standpoint who gives a damn what "everyone" or any coach thinks? Or if anbody says boo? The important part is that you knew the rule and you made the correct call. That's all that really matters.

justacoach Tue Feb 15, 2011 06:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeedonk (Post 730447)
would have said boo...
Dear Z:
I claim trademark on this verbal construction, in perpetuity, within this forum. Please refrain from using it in the future.:cool:;):D

zeedonk Tue Feb 15, 2011 06:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 730460)
Regarding the highlighted sentences, from an official's standpoint who gives a damn what "everyone" or any coach thinks? Or if anbody says boo? The important part is that you knew the rule and you made the correct call. That's all that really matters.
I agree. I knew I was right, didn't think twice about it.

Now, while I head out to my local CYO games, I bet I will hear a lot more about a lot less!!!!

Z


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