I'm thinking about giving it up.
 

I just heard a rumor (which I believe, BTW), that our biggest conference in the area (that produces more than its share of D-1 players) is planning on going back to 2-person in 2012-13. That would mean all of our area conferences would be back to 2-person for conference play.

I was really expecting that by now we'd be 3-person across the board. I worked 2 big schools BV (2-person) on Saturday and I worked harder than I've ever worked -- working the perimeter as the trail and at times flying all out up and down the court. I thought my partner and I did a pretty damned nice job during the game and we got a fair number of compliments from some assignors and former assignors who were in attendance, but I'm reaching the point where I do not want to settle with a 2-person crew working these games anymore.

So I wonder if it's time to simply work football and baseball and take November through March off. It's something I'll really be thinking about this off-season.

I have contracts through 2012-13 (in some conferences) and I'll honor those, so I have another 2 years of games, but if I decide to pack it in I simply won't accept any more contracts.

I've said it before - I find working BJV 2-man my toughest. Fast, and mentally and physically draining. BV would be even more difficult.

Good luck on your decision and future Rich.

If it's true that basketball players have gotten taller, stronger, ticker, faster, more skilled along the way, the hard evidence would be to gather the 40 yard times for these athletes, average height, weight, and strength, and then find those numbers at the NCAA level in years gone by. I bet at that time, the NCAA had 3 officials.

Good luck with your discernment, Rich.

We are mixed here in Maryland, most boards seem to use 2, we have used 3 for more than 10 years. ( on varsity ) I think we get more calls right using 3 than if we used 2.

That should be the goal, getting it right. Maybe by 2012, they will see the light.

We had one moment where a coach was really annoyed at a call on Saturday night -- I called an illegal screen on a player who was clearly in the L's primary across the court. But since the ball was in the L's primary and was closely guarded, I had no choice but to expand and get this -- the screen opened up a shooter for an uncontested 3. With 3 officials, we'd probably have had the L strong side and the T over there gets the screen. When I talked to my partner after the game, he said he was forced to leave his look at that right before the screener "gave a little extra" and the defender ended up on the floor.

This is what we end up having to do with 2 officials. And in 2011 we shouldn't have to do this anymore. I don't mind the running -- I'm in the best shape of my life. What I mind is the fact that we have such a harder time working the game and getting optimal looks at stuff.

I'm in the minority on this topic. I prefer the 2-man system for basketball.

More to do both physically and mentally, which makes the game more engaging and exciting for the official.

Fortunately, the schools in NC have no choice. The NCHSAA mandates 3 man crews for all varsity games.

But if they changed back to 2 man tomorrow, my game tomorrow night would be my last.

It's an outdated, ineffective way of officiating HS basketball.

Financial realities in our school districts have brought this issue up in our most recent negotiating cycle. Fortunately, coaches in our district seem to wield enough clout to keep the bean-counters at bay. They actually seem to grasp the value of the third set of eyes.

I have done two and three man this year...Two man for sub varsity and three for varsity.

I have to say I would have to seriously reconsider whether I would continue if forced to revert to two-man for varsity contests. I view it as a giant step backward in terms of overall quality and professionalism, and not something I would want to be involved in. I wish you luck with your decision, Rich. I understand where you're coming from.

Belongs with the byron collar and belts.

I might not quit if this happen in my area, but I would certainly stop working certain leagues or number of games.

Then again our playoffs are all 3 Person and I doubt they would go backwards. Also helps integrate newer officials into the system. Time will tell, but I would not want to go backwards that is for sure.

Peace

+1 2man reminds me of a one room school house.

In Socal...2 man at both JV and V...2 man even in playoffs and 3 man ONLY in last 2 rounds of the PLAYOFFS.

All about the $$$$$!

Pleasant Report from the Mitten
 

Here across the lake from Rut the one conference who went to two-person for varsity for this past season, having reportedly regretted its decision, has decided to revert to three-person again next year. Apparently they found that the seasoned officials they had come to appreciate refused to make themselves available for two-person games and continued with their three-man crews, so these schools lost what they felt were the best officials for most of their games.
That leaves the sublevel games, especially the doubleheaders, for the AD's and superintendents to win back to three-person so as to provide the seedbed for varsity officials of the future.
I don't mind doing two-person. With a good, reliable partner it's a good system, and that's what I started with back when Wilt was still playing. But I do miss working with the veterans who chose not to do the same. Going back to three-person will be a welcome move on the varsity level. And if they keep wanting two-person crews for those F/JV doubleheaders, I don't think they're gonna be real satisfied with what they're going to end up with, as much as those guys really do try to do a good job.

Old refs
 

Seems like you guys are just getting OLD, maybe let these YOUNG refs in that can "RUN" or be "mentally" able to handle a 2 man game. (not that hard....) I don't see any reason to have 3 officials. If the TWO officials are "on the same page" (so to speak) then they should be MORE than adequate.

I really don't care how young anyone is or how well they can run, a 2 man crew is going to miss calls.

If they miss only 2 or 3 calls the whole game, it can make a difference in a 3 point game.

Besides, the older guys, call a better game. It's called experience.

Is That an "Either/Or"?
 

A young ref who can run OR be mentally able . . .? Does this have to be an "either/or"? :D
We have such a "younger" guy on our regular crew. We are amazed at his mental acuity and judgement and he is amazed that guys nearly twice his age can get up and down the court as well as he.
I've been with OLD refs (same age as I) who can neither RUN nor be mentally able to handle a 2 man game. Not at the varsity level, but on the way down and out. Not always the easiest thing to suggest that a long-time official "hang it up" and, perhaps, volunteer to man the association video crew or something.
As for MSNRich, without seeing him in action, just sensing the fast-paced schedule he maintains over in that part of the country, I'd say he's not one of those guys at this time. Therefore my vote is for him not to render it over to those unable at this time to provide the quality of service he is still providing.

I'm a young official. I don't have any trouble running up and down the court. I don't think that those on the boards couldn't mentally handle a two person game. I'm sure most of them have been doing two man a lot longer than you and I have. I realize that even if I'm on the same page with my partner, we will miss calls even if we're both on the same page. Two man is an absolute joke compared to three man. Angles, court coverage, positioning, consistency, no guessing...the list is long about why 3 man is heads above 2 man.

Plus, you'll find with doing 3 man, it actually benefits us younger officials because we can be paired up with two veteran officials. You go back to 2 man, and you're going to have assignors only putting two veterans on the bigger games and that younger official on a lesser or lower level due to all the varsity slots being taken up.

This friend speaks my mind, excpet the part about having trouble running up and down the court. 3-whistle is definitely all about angles and coverage. Male players are so big that it's impossible for two refs to see everything. Female players are so much more physical, with so much more contact, that it's impossible to be consistent and to cover everything. 3-whistle is unquestionably the better way to go.

One of our major HS leagues went 2 person this year & those were some of the toughest games I've ever worked!! I hear that other leagues plan on going 2 next season. This is a tough game to call with 3 whistles let alone going back to 2 :mad:

My message to assignors will be, "if its not 3 dont pick me."

You are obviously a green reff to have an opinion like that! Experience will show you that 3 man provides way better court coverage and less things are missed. Sounds like you have an axe to grind because you may not be getting the higher games. I would suggest you change your tune about older officials. I'm not old and I treasure the time I get to spend officiating with the veteran reffs. If I ever have the choice of who will work with me in a varsity game, I'll pick the senior reffs every time! Officiating basketball isn't all about being fast up and down the court, senior reffs through their experience have learned to have a slow whistle and superior game management.

Surprised
 

Every Year we discuss on here about who does 3 and who uses 2 whistle crews for varsity. I am just so shocked that some areas still even consider using 2 on any varsity games. We have been doing 3 on all varsity games in my district in PA for I believe 6 years now for all varsity contests. Playoffs and bigger schools had went to 3 a few years before that. THere are just parts of the court that a 2 whistle crew cannot cover to the fullest. Fouls eventually get harder when players realize certain things can't be seen. I know money is an issue, but you would think that AD's and even school board members would look at the safety of their student athletes when making these decisions. My district really stepped years ago when negotiating our contracts. We went to various school districts, talked to reps for the district and presented why 3-man (woman) crews are so vital to the game. It worked, not right away but soon all schools followed suit. Best of luck to all of you, but I encourage you as officials in the same region to keep fighting for 3 whistle crews. It is so much better for the game!

Who's Counting the Beans?
 

+1

The schools in our area which went from three-man ("man" used here generically to designate "human", not necessarily "not woman", that way I don't have to always say "-person") to two- apparently did so not on the recommendation of the athletic directors, in fact in spite of the AD's fervent insistence. It was a case where the administrators above them elected to go to two-man.
To the ones who count the beans goes the final decision.

$$ Talk
 

I get really sick of hearing about ADs and Boards trying to make a financial argument for cutting back on the number of officials on games.

As has been well documented in the last month (Louisiana thread, among others), pay rates vary. But the overall difference in a school or athletic budget between 2 and 3 officials for HS Varsity contests over the course of the season is negligible.

Assuming they don't raise the game fee, the total savings might (MIGHT) be $1,000 for 11 V double headers over the season -- that's in Iowa, if you're working at a school district that pays well. But if you're taking away the 3rd set of eyes, you darn well better be paying the other two people more or you're not going to get people who want to do it. The bottom line savings will end up being $500 or less... and you're gonna get exactly what you pay for.

Sorry for the rant, I just hate the bean counter argument.

Who posted the quote, "I don't do this for the money, but I wouldn't do it for free either..." ??? Love that.

I agree with the thre man crews being more advantageous... I am in my first year of recieving three man varsity games and notice the difference. I notice the speed of the game is faster but I am able slow down my primaries so much better than in two man. I also teach and foresee budget cuts but here in Austin area, A.D.'s are more apt to stay with three man crews. Good luck Rich and take your time in deciding.

Double that unless the schools are only fielding one varsity basketball team.

You're clearly an idiot, but I'll humor you anyway. It has nothing to do with my physical condition or my age or my mental state. It has to do with the angles I get and the stuff we simply can't see because 4 eyes can't watch all four corners of the court at the same time.

It has to do with providing the best possible product. There's no way in God's green earth that you can do as good a job 2-person with any partner than I can do with 2 experienced 3-person officials. It just isn't possible.

No, he works in Oregon, a state that at my last check was just as backwards and slow as starting 3-person officiating as we appear to be.

I really think it is funny that some officials want 2 man over 3, It has nothing to do with physicality if you ref a 3-man game correctly. You will run and work for angles almost as much as you would in a 2 man game. I do think that there are some areas that try to do 3 man but it doesn't work because they are stuck in a 2 man mentality and ref that way. There is an art to working 3 man for sure.

Work with players when darn near everyone is over 6 foot and plays consistently over the rim, then come back and tell me that 2 Person is better than 3 Person.

Peace

What does running have to do with handling a 2-man game as opposed to a 3-man game? Running is the easy part to adjust to. Being on the same page applies to 2-man and 3-man and has nothing to do with the argument.

The difference between 2-man and 3-man is coverage and call accuracy, pure and simple.

Rich hit the nail on the head, guys an IDIOT!

I only know of two conferences in Iowa that split girls and boys games. The majority of schools play G/B doubleheaders.

Sounds like someone's a bit upset he's not getting varsity games. Think about this, Jr., going to 3 whistles makes more opportunities for younger officials.

I know the CIML splits, but the schools in the conference I played in do not. But that's beside the point. The point is, I missed the "double header" part and was thinking varsity games.

We use the varsity doubleheader format here too and do everything in two whistle (except certain tournament championships and playoffs from the quarterfinals onward).Actually the school I scorekeep for had the same set of referees in the quarterfinal round two out of three years.Good crew but what are the odds on working the same school out of your area that much?

Not sure, we'd have to ask Charlie Epps.

You would be correct on that point...no 3-man in Oregon at this time.

Only if they don't bundle two games together.....otherwise it drops from 4 officials needed to 3 officials needed for a pair of games.

Assuming 3 get double headers while 2 do not, you're right. That's not always the case, though. I've seen all four combinations.

Math is hard.
 

Yep... my numbers were working doubleheaders. About the only time we see JV/V Boys is at the end of the season (like now) when the girls are done and the boys still have a week left.

Even so, say it happens a couple times a year, it's still peanuts.

OT - I try not to think too hard about what I make an hour. I'll average ~$75 for working a G/B doubleheader (as low as $60 as high as $90 - and no gas $$). So say I make the 2+ hr trek each way to a small school in rural Iowa, I might net $10/hr... but probably not. :(

They still working 2 in those rural schools?

Not in the Bluegrass, NCC, Raccoon, HOI or any place else I've been this year.

Anybody else, Iowans?

The MAC still splits boys and girls; so does the WaMac. The Cedar Valley went to more combined girl/boy doubles this year and I think they are going to do it exclusively next year.

I agree with others that doing a sophomore boys game two person is much more difficult than working a three person varsity boys game. It isn't the amount of running either; it's the fact that you just aren't going to see everything. Working three person is just superior in terms of coverage. Funny, several other guys I have worked with this year have mentioned how difficult it is getting to work those soph boys games two person as well. If these schools I work at where you always have to work two games, either JV/Varsity or girl/boy double, went back to two person I would give it up and just stick to baseball.

+1 IowaMike

Last Friday I somehow got assigned to work a 3-man crew for a single JV game here in Des Moines. The check was $35 (vs $45 for 2-man), but it was a 4:45 start, done by 6:05. Home for dinner.

Loved it.

I figured up the 2 vs. 3 money difference for an average school here.

11 home games x 2 (Girls and Boys). Mileage not counted because it shouldn't be any different.

2-Man = $220 per night x 22 nights = $4,840

3-Man = $330 per night x 22 nights = $7,260

$2,420 difference. That is property taxes on about two houses around here. It looks like a lot, but it's pretty negligible.

You get paid the same for 2 vs 3?

Yep, although there are very few 3-man games around here. There are two conferences with all Class 4 or 5 schools (Biggest classes), and one of them mandates 3-man for all JV/V nights in either girls or boys. The other was doing this for several years but has decided to make it optional now, so only a few do it for all games, and some only do it for "big" games.

Sometimes three of us will get assigned to a 9th/JV/V night or a BJV/BV/GV tripleheader at a small school. Usually we split it up and all work two games, but sometimes guys will work 3-man all night and split the game fees up three ways. You make less but it makes for an easier night.

I would love it if we got paid a bit more to work 2-man varsity games (Maybe $60 or so) and kept the 3-man rate at $55.

I am for 3-man as much as anyone, but it is not needed for some levels of varsity around here. Most Class 1 and 2 games here do not need three officials. I'll let you figure out why.

I don't know of anyone working two person for varsity games in Iowa. In addition to the MAC in the Quad Cities, I work a lot of games in smaller 1A and 2A conferences and it's always three person and you do a doubleheader, usually boy/girl varsity. The pay disparity is huge though; you get $75 for a single varsity game in the MAC (4A conference), but generally only $75 or $80 to do two games at the smaller schools, plus mileage for one driver. I sometimes wonder why I"m making a three hour round trip for that much money some nights when I could work one soph game at one of the big 4A schools 5 or 10 minutes from my house for $55 and be home by 7:30. I don't do it primarily for the money, but getting home at 11:00 or 12:00 on a work night for an extra $20 doesn't always feel like it's worth it. Ego I guess, or pure insanity.

I'm not sure your math is right and I think you should divide those totals by 2....a team only plays half their games at home (you mention that but don't seem to use it in your math). A different team would be covering the other 11 games. (Or each team is covering half of the total each night).

Or are you saying a referee gets $110 per game? Or is that for a JV/V double header where the JV would get the same crew?

In Oregon, the rate comes out to about $60-$65 for most games (once mileage is included) for 2-person. That would be $120-$130 per game per crew. For about 11 games per gender, that is $2860. That would lead to an increase of $1430 per school to add a 3rd official for ALL varsity games for each season (if you still payed each official at the same rate...which is rarely the case in places that use a 3rd).

Could be 11 boys' + 11 girls' games = 22 games. ;)

Assuming you'd work 3-whistle for $55 per game, they're saving a whopping total of $35 per game, or $770 per year per school (assuming 22 varsity home games per school).

When the switch to three whistles was being discussed in my area many years ago, one administrator said " I am all for three whistles at the game...and after the game the coaches can vote on which two of the officials get paid."

What amazes me is that states want 3 whistles in the playoffs but schools do not realize the huge differences in coverage areas and quality. To go from 2 to 3 in a DH often means I miss some areas early in the second game. Maybe they should play with 4 players during the regular season and then use five in the playoffs.

Connecticut ...
 

Agree. And don't forget challenging.

That's my personnel opinion regarding how I like to work. That being said, the modern high school game is much better officiated by three officials. That's why, here in Connecticut, we go to three person crews from the state quarterfinals, on up; for many league, or conference finals; and for a few "big city" rivalry games.

As many of you know from my postings, the Land of Steady Habits, is, pretty much, exceptions above, the Land of the Two Person Game. Even if school superintendents, principals, athletic directors, and coaches, wanted to go to three person games, and had the money available, we wouldn't have enough officials to work said games. As it is, we have trouble covering busy Friday night schedules with two person crews, especially when we have more than just a few officials unavailable due to injury, or illness.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1171/...26aa3009_m.jpg

Things are getting so bad around here, along with paying taxes and theh obligatory fund raisers, some school districts are now charging $50 for the privilege of having your kid play sports and THEN don't forget to pay your admission fee to get in to watch them in the game.......

@ $110 per game? I think he double counted them....either in number of games or in the dollar amount.,

That's cheap.

How Much To Join The Chess Club ???
 

Here in The Constitution State, we call it, "Pay and Play".

Same in my state.

Do the letters F. O. mean anything to you?
 

I'm about 100% sure I can referee circles around you.

Wow more than adequate, logically that means one official could handle the game.

I have all but quit accepting 2 person Varsity games. I'll only take them with a very strong partner.

3 years ago, I thought most HS (frosh and JV) around here would be 3 person. With the budget situation, that's not happening anytime soon, though I don't expect things to go backwards.

That's actually less than we make. (LA) The least I can get for a varsity doubleheader is $72. (3 man, $31/game, minimum travel $10 per man)
A normal varsity night, (2 man is about all we do) is more like $90 to $95.

I can only speak for my area of Missouri - but on a typical game night there is a Soph/Varsity DH of the same gender. There will be a 2-man Soph crew (pay is I think $46) and a varsity 3-man crew ($65).

On the rare occasion that there is a Girls/Boys varsity DH there will be two distinct varsity 3-man crews. Also usually with that there are two prior (or concurrently in a sec gym) Soph games with two 2-man crews on those as well.

On occasion a Soph official will pull double duty due to injury or other circumstance, he will be paid as though he was working two distinct games.

We have taken a step backwards here in Southeast Kansas going from all 3 man varsity, to now where only one conference uses 3 man. We hear much more whining and yelling from coaches, most of us are frustrated, and it doesn't matter at all. What's worse, we go back to 3 for all playoffs and the teams get to adjust to us now having that third set of eyes. All this so each school can save $700. Yep. That much.

All our V games are GV/BV doubleheaders. Schools are limited to 20 games. That is 20 GV/BV dates. 10 home, 10 away. 10 home dates @ 2 x $115 for two man, or 3x 100 for three man. Do the math. Each school saves 700/yr. It's total crap.

It is 11 girls and 11 boys games. Yes, the JV and V games are the same crew. Two games of 8-minute quarters each (A lot of the big schools play 8-minute JV quarters) would be $110 for each official for the night.

We have over 200 officials in our group, but we have a lot of schools to cover, so I don't think separate JV and V officials would be feasible.

Yep.

Lol
 

LOL! talk all the sh*t you want guys. I LOVE IT! LOL. There are NO 3 man crews in Oregon at the time, all high school games are 2 man crews, j.v. as well as varsity. A 2 man crew is just fine for ANY basketball game, yes a 3 man crew is easier (for you old men out there) but 2 is just as good, you can see everything just fine (unless you wear old man glasses), and the game will go just as fast as a 3 man crew. Besides the economy is in the hole, i don't see y'all 3 manning crews much longer.
ANd as for reffing circles around me, me being an "idiot" (quote from some of you) and all you others that are talking it up. keep it coming old men! I encourage a little bit of sh*t talk! :D (kinda what the 1st post was for) ><

Thanks for proving you're an idiot. If I wanted to be subjected to this sort of spelling, grammar, and emoticons, I'd read my daughter's emails. Come back after you graduate from high school.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the actual substance of your post; it would be like arguing with a wall.

All this post does is reinforce that you don't know anything about officiating or that you're just trying to be an a$$-clown. You can let us know which one applies.

You had all that time to respond and this was the best you could do?

Peace

Really?

I'd like to see this guy work!!

3 person isnt about "easier" or "faster" games, its about better court coverage!

Yep, and if baby Einstein here was right, then you can bet they'd be using 2 man crews at the NCAA and NBA levels as well.

Old man rage!
 

LOL! U mad old man? Dont be, its just a forum.

IT IS AN INTERNET FORUM. Get with the times old man. Spelling is correct, and all the grammar and "emoticons" are all "correct too" ITS AN INTERNET FORUM. Oh wait, do you know what the internet is? Here: Internet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obvious Troll is Obvious

Hey!
 

HEY! Looks like someone got it right!
Dang old men don't get it. LOL. poor guys..

Far from old and probably in much better shape than most here including you. And as it was said, if age had anything to do with this, then most levels would hire the youngest officials and strictly go to 2 Person. Funny is they do not. And if you have to brag about any of this without giving your name or location, then that is telling to me. This is my real name and I give my real location all the time. You can see video of my games and I will let you decide what I can or cannot do. Send me a PM and I can tell you were to buy the games I was seen doing. ;)

Peace

I'm not an old man. In fact, I'm probably a lot younger than you are. I have no probably keeping up with the game nor with my eyesight. And I still maintain that three man is superior to two person in all facets. If what you said was true (two man is fine for any basketball game), then all NCAA and NBA games would be done with two officials. Imagine the extra money they would save using only two officials.

Guess that answers my question. You're just bored and being an a$$-clown. Now I know what to do when I see your name pop up on this inter-web thingy.

Not quite, sonny.

see!!!! Lol,

lol, wow....
 

lol, do you not get it? IT IS A FORUM!!!!! NOT A COLLEGE TERM PAPER!!!!! Spelling and grammar DOSNT HAVE TO BE CORRECT!!! THATS WHY IT IS CORRECT!!!!! LOL
/end troll

Oh, I know what the internet is, Einstein. I also know that I stop reading when pi$$ poor sentence structure is involved. I don't care if it's an internet forum, email, FB post, or telegram from BillyMac's KGB handlers asking for a reference.

Since it's the internet, you certainly have the right to write like a 12 year old. Just don't expect to be taken seriously when talking to adults.

And the IP search shows this person is from... LOL!

Yup, and it worked for him too. We get these clowns here every now and then. They usually don't last long. They leave once everybody figures out what they are.

That's enough.

How about t3xt m3$$ag3z Snaqs? Iz it ohhkay 2 purpu$ly hv grammat!cal 3rror$ th3r3 :D

Texts and tweets, sure.
cuz they R limited on the # of characters they can have

I <3 Twitter

I was just kidding Snaqs, my daughter texts me like that & I generally wind up calling her as I only speak English.

I ask her if its to save characters, why is "ok" spelled "ohhkay?" Kids today...

Gosh, I can't wait until my daughter starts texting.

Ugh. Just you wait. Comes with attitude and hormones, too. :(

A word about 3 versus 2. Nobody who has ever called a game would argue the fact that 3 officials, properly trained, can call a game better than 2. But there are many more factors to consider. Comparing most high schools to anything at the professional or collegiate levels is not realistic. Many numbers have been quoted that the total added expense would only be X amount per season, but the fact is, that X amount is sometimes a significant amount to a small school. Is a better officiating job worth X amount? Many schools quickly say no. Our association has only one school that uses 3 man. This means that the system is not at all familiar or comfortable to most of us. When you call 100 games 2 man, then 1 game 3 man, is the quality of the job any better? Sometimes probably not. Finally, consider the school, regardless of size, which for whatever reason, simply had really bad basketball teams. They know that most nights, not only will they not win, but most nights it will not be close. Are these schools anxious to provide a 3rd set of eyes to watch blowouts? NO. All things considered, all 3 man for high school ball is something that will probably never happen.

Our boys association, here in WA, does all 3 whistle for all levels, Frosh, Soph, JV, and V...for all sizes of schools, from the smallest to the largest.

MS is two whistle.

Might be overkill...but, we get up and coming officials that know how to officiate 3 whistle.;)

New guy, it's real simple. Just because it's on an internet forum, doesn't mean that spelling and grammar by rule must go out the window. Every board sets its own parameters for vernacular. This board, through tradition sets an expectation for reasonable grammar and best effort spelling. If you don't, you will be called out for it. if you don't like it, tough, go start your own board. If you don't understand all that, then you have removed all doubt that you're an idiot.

In some situations it's better from the table, that there is the extra official to watch for dead ball signals.

Plus, from what I've noticed, there's a higher chance of better calls which equals out to better play.

The basketball community would be without a great asset if you do decide to hang up your whistle.

This guy obviously isn't an official. He's just an @ss clown that stopped by to cause trouble. Bob, I hope you're working with Brad on getting rid of him.

From a youngin...
 

That's tough Rich. Hope it turns out for the best for you and fellow officials up there. I understand both points of view, esp. if their side is heavily rooted in the $$ aspect.
My association generally covers small schools/districts. But the state has said all varsity is 3-man reg. and post season. Sub varsity and Jr. High are done with two. In CO, CHSAA states (bear with me, might not be 100% accurate #s) that all Jr. High games are $30-35 a game, frosh(C team)/jv are $40-45 and varsity is $60-70. (I haven't done anything above Jr. High at the moment due to my injury so those #s might not be spot on.) CHSAA allows mileage for games 35-40+ miles from the drivers home, only driver gets mileage checks, and I can't remember if its $/mi. or a flat rate.
And, coming from a young official, both in age and exp., the very little 3-man exposure I had doing a scrimmage, I can see the benefits so much more than just having two bodies out there for any level contest. I'm a small guy, I'm more built for one person sports, and having teenage boys being inches to a foot plus over me and a few pounds more than me, I would sure as heck want four more eyes on the court than just two. I am fast and was blessed with incredible fast twitch muscle ability and incredible recovery time, but I've got fellow officials in my association that are twice my age and can keep up with me on the court. Age has no bearing on physical fitness, if you keep your body in shape and mind sharp, age becomes a non issue. The place age will get you is in the experience and exposure. Coaches will want you (we have schools draft 2 of the 3 for their games here) if they know you and know you know what you are doing before they will want the younger guy they don't don't know squat about.
And, to add my $0.02 here on the spelling/grammar comments... I'm part of the Digital Generation/Generation Y but I will always despise the butchering the English language has taken. I always fully type out my words, and especially in a forum where I'm relatively new/unknown, minimize my slang/emoticons, because this is written communication. You can not tell the person's intent much like you can with face to face interaction.
Anywho....I'm done.

T, I'm not aware that CHSAA regulates ms games at all, for one. When I was on the western slope a few years ago, we were getting 12.50 per ms game. I did that for one season, it wasn't worth getting off of work early to work them.

As for mileage, I don't think CHSAA regulates who may pay it and who can't. I know here we get mileage for many games that are closer than your noted range. Those that work in the two major metro areas get a $2 travel stipend per trip; when we go outside our metro area (outlying towns), we get mileage. Whether it's 15 miles or 50 miles, we get it.

Frosh and JV pay the same here, also, except there's a 3-man discount for JV. I couldn't tell you the exact rates this year, though, due to my own injury.

12.50? How did they get those games covered? Last season I was getting 70-75 for doing two games. Heck, there's a local rec tourney this weekend, 2-6 grade, and they are even offering $20 a game. Maybe its what our association has negotiated with the schools around here on the MS game rates. I know I read it, rates/mileage, somewhere online but with my luck, I'm not finding it at the moment. I'm thinking the mileage distance is smaller than that... I traveled 20 mi. one way and my partner was saying I could probably be getting mileage as well as game $.

Hope ya heal up, riding the pine is starting to irritate me.

Ah, I just found the mileage....its on the bright pink packet that was sent out by CHSAA; Its $ per mi. and it was increased from .29 to .36 starting the '09-10 season and its for anything traveled more than 20 miles one way. I think that rate was the same for this season as well.

Yeah, I think they increased it to $15 my second year, but I was getting $37.50 for a triple header on tartan floors. No idea how they covered them, but let's just say some of my partners weren't exactly IAABO certified. Some career ms refs mixed in with a few IAABO guys who just liked to work.

As for mileage, I'm sure it's all about your local association's agreement with the schools; just like any pay above and beyond the state minimums.

Yeah, this season has sucked. Getting those emails, "need someone to cover these games on this date" hasn't helped either.