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mbyron Thu Feb 10, 2011 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jfpdi (Post 728546)
Quote:
3) player drops to his knee while holding the ball

Always traveling anytime a player holding the ball tocuhes the floor with any part of his body other than his foot or hand.


Always is a strong word because if you are in one of those places that uses NCAA women's rules ( such as colleges) and NYS high school girls basketball this is not a travel violation. It is recognized that just dropping to one knee does not necessarily mean the pivot foot moved illegally.

Huh? That's not the provision being violated.

tref Thu Feb 10, 2011 09:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jfpdi (Post 728546)
Always is a strong word because if you are in one of those places that uses NCAA women's rules ( such as colleges) and NYS high school girls basketball this is not a travel violation. It is recognized that just dropping to one kneee does not necessarily mean the pivot foot moved illegally.

Rule reference please...

Jfpdi Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:01am

Before it is a travelling violation the player has to fail to maintain the pivot foot. Just dropping to one knee does not mean the player failed to maintain the pivot foot in NCAA.

Case Book A.R. 117.3
"When a player falls to one knee while holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves."
(Rule 4-70.6 and 4-70.1)

tref Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jfpdi (Post 728572)
Before it is a travelling violation the player has to fail to maintain the pivot foot. Just dropping to one knee does not mean the player failed to maintain the pivot foot in NCAA.

Case Book A.R. 117.3
"When a player falls to one knee while holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves."
(Rule 4-70.6 and 4-70.1)


And you did notice, "because it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the playing floor" in the ruling on 1 & 2?

Jfpdi Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:25am

1. refers to falling to the floor while holding the ball without maintaining a pivot foot, which of course is a violation.

2. states the player dropped to both knees without maintaining a pivot foot, of course a violation.

Yes it states it is vitually impossible to fall and maintain a pivot foot, but all 3 state that the pivot foot must move for the violation to occur. Just dropping to one knee does not mean that the pivot foot moved.

I believe this was also a quiz in a recent "Referee" magazine and it did distinguish between Fed and NCAA interpretations on dropping to one knee. Fed it is a travel violation. In NCAA the pivot foot must move.

tref Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:29am

Gotcha! So in HS its automatic & NCAA its a judgment call...

bob jenkins Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jfpdi (Post 728579)
1. refers to falling to the floor while holding the ball without maintaining a pivot foot, which of course is a violation.

2. states the player dropped to both knees without maintaining a pivot foot, of course a violation.

Yes it states it is vitually impossible to fall and maintain a pivot foot, but all 3 state that the pivot foot must move for the violation to occur. Just dropping to one knee does not mean that the pivot foot moved.

I believe this was also a quiz in a recent "Referee" magazine and it did distinguish between Fed and NCAA interpretations on dropping to one knee. Fed it is a travel violation. In NCAA the pivot foot must move.

Agreed.

FED rules are the standard here, unless something else is specified (which you did)

Jurassic Referee Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 728583)
Gotcha! So in HS its automatic & NCAA its a judgment call...

It might be a judgment call in NCAA but it's also automatic. Traveling is called. It's the expected and accepted call.

tref Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 728587)
It might be a judgment call in NCAA but it's also automatic. Traveling is called. It's the expected and accepted call.

Yes, that is one rule that the fanatics seem to comprehend :)

cmhjordan23 Thu Feb 10, 2011 02:38pm

What if player with the ball is flat on his back and does a sit-up to a sitting position?

I would say this is not a travel since your already on the ground.

APG Thu Feb 10, 2011 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 (Post 728696)
What if player with the ball is flat on his back and does a sit-up to a sitting position?

I would say this is not a travel since your already on the ground.

Case book play 4.44.5 Situation B answers your question exactly.

CecilOne Thu Feb 10, 2011 04:53pm

Most of that, too. :)

jTheUmp Thu Feb 10, 2011 05:15pm

Understanding the rules of "traveling vs not traveling", at least for me, is the easy part.

The hard part is being able to pick out the traveling violations in a game situation. As it stands right now, at least once a game I'll see a traveling violation, and my brain will lock up and do the "ummm... uh.... uh..... oh yeah, that's a travel" routine. The problem is that by the time my brain gets to "that's a travel", 2-3 seconds have passed and it's really too late to call it.

It also seems like my partners usually are calling more traveling violations then I am during the course of a game.

Any tips on how I can improve my "that's a travel" awareness?

tref Thu Feb 10, 2011 05:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 728756)
Any tips on how I can improve my "that's a travel" awareness?

I know they tell us to referee the defense, but identifying the pivot foot as soon as the player receives the ball is really the only way to adjudicate properly...

Try a team officiating concept on post entry passes:
L - officiates the defender(s)
T - picks up the pivot foot
C - prepare for the curl play

jeffpea Thu Feb 10, 2011 06:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rookie (Post 727948)
Hello,

I feel that I am not understanding traveling violation enough to call it often.

Any help on clarifying traveling in game situations...

Thanks!

i've found that if you simply call traveling when it "looks funny", you'll keep the fans, coaches, and players happy...they don't know the rules either...:)

oh wait...that could apply to "over-and-back" violations, "over-the-back" fouls, 3 second violations, illegal screens, block/charge plays, hand-check plays, "carrying" violations...well I guess it's EVERYTHING really!


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