Easier for us to see...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You penalize the total act including retaliation.

Are you seriously trying to say that if there's a fight, we always need to catch whomever threw the first punch? The first punch would be a flagrant personal foul and an immediate retaliation would be a flagrant technical foul?

The "immediate" reaction might be 10 seconds later, or more. Whistle has blown, ball is long since dead. No way this retaliation can be a personal foul.
So if you were gonna label the whole fight and call it a double anything, technical would fit a lot more often that personal.

But as we all continue to agree, in this case, technical or personal, it really doesn't matter.

[NoFussRef]

I was trail on this play. The incident occurred early in the 1st period. Nothing had gone on between these two players prior the punch being thrown. Everyone on both teams was shocked (as you can hear from the video) and it was so out-of-the-blue that most people didn't even see it happen. I should know, I missed it myself! I was looking in my PCA and had nothing on it.

This is one of those instances where we must trust our partners and back them up 100% no matter what the circumstance. What the video doesn't show is the reaction from my partner after he makes the call. He actually lost control a bit and allowed his emotions to get the better of him. Having never worked with him before, and because he arrived late we hadn't had the opportunity to pre-game, to calm him down I went and asked him to go administer the T-Free throws and told him I would take care of the coach and score table for him. He went so far as to tell the player being ejected that "his season was over!!!" (Not our call of course, handled by the league.)

He later apologized for losing his cool, and for the "Season's over!" comment. Also said that he couldn't see if the contact was open or closed handed but judged it to be flagrant. I told him I had nothing on it but that if he was sure of what he saw it I would back him up.

The rest of the game went great though. Went into 4 Overtime Periods!!!!
No further incidents, excellent sportsmanship from all other participants.

In case anyone is wondering... Yes, the kid was ejected from our league.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

He later apologized for losing his cool, and for the "Season's over!" comment. Also said that he couldn't see if the contact was open or closed handed but judged it to be flagrant. I told him I had nothing on it but that if he was sure of what he saw it I would back him up.

When you said you were trail, I'm assuming you meant old trail/new lead.

Doesn't matter...an attempted/connected slap/punch is a flagrant T/foul. Also was your partner just emotional over the flagrant? I'm guessing it was the first time he's had to deal with something of this nature?

[NoFussRef]

I believe trail is still trail when they are inbounding under their own basket.

As for partner's reaction (not shown in video), he is the second partner this year where we have had an ejection and rather than just make the call, follow procedure, and move on... he became quite angry at the "ejectee" and followed him to the bench almost as if he had to "sell" this call.

Don't know his experience other than he stated he has worked some of the same Adult Mens Rec ball that I have. Would assume he has called intentional, flagrant, indirect/direct Ts etc.. before, but can't say for sure.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

I believe trail is still trail when they are inbounding under their own basket.

As for partner's reaction (not shown in video), he is the second partner this year where we have had an ejection and rather than just make the call, follow procedure, and move on... he became quite angry at the "ejectee" and followed him to the bench almost as if he had to "sell" this call.

Don't know his experience other than he stated he has worked some of the same Adult Mens Rec ball that I have. Would assume he has called intentional, flagrant, indirect/direct Ts etc.. before, but can't say for sure.

I believe there was a steal thus making you the new lead.

That's interesting that you've had two partners who went haywire after calling a flagrant on a player. How did the coaches react to this? I'd venture a guess that they might be a bit irked.

[NoFussRef]

Had to watch the video again... You ARE correct, steal happens before the punch and whistle. I had just became new lead. Fair enough.

In this game it was almost as if my partner was the ONLY person to have actually seen it. I like to think this is not something I could ever miss, PCA or not, but it was so quick neither coach saw it either.

Green #34's coach was still in shock and trying to understand what had happened that by the time he was eyeing my partner's response I had managed to get partner focused on something else (FTs).

Coach and I had a quick talk about how that is NOT what he teaches his players yadayada, and I could also tell he was sincere when he apologized to the other bench for what had happened. Quick speech from both coaches to their players RE: NO retaliation etc... and game went into 4 OTs with out a hitch.

In a separate incident with different partner, HS Boys back to back Ts on 1 player for running mouth and foul language at my partner. That game ended in an ejection (2 Ts) in which the player returned moments later and we stopped/canceled rest of game.

Coach allowed parents to take control of player in hallway and player decided to return anyway.
1 bad apple spoiled it for the rest.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm asking about a situation where the first punch is obvious, and there's a 2nd punch that comes after the whistle but pretty damned quickly.

I'll spell it out again, only slightly different:
1. A1 punches B1.
2. B1 falls to the floor.
3. R blows his whistle for the fight.
4. B1 gets up and throws a punch at A1, but he misses.

Are you calling: A flagrant double T (first foul was live ball contact)? A flagrant double personal (second foul was dead ball no-contact)? A false double?

My opinion? Call the total act a fight. Assess double personal flagrant fouls as per case book play 10.4.5SitA and quit over-thinking these kind of plays. You don't have to parse every single word in a rule to get direction you can use.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Doesn't matter...an attempted/connected slap/punch is a flagrant T/foul.

A connected slap punch is a flagrant technical foul? Wrong by rule.

A connected slap/punch during a live ball is a flagrant personal foul as per rule 4-19-1 and 4-19-4.

A connected slap punch during a dead ball is a flagrant technical foul as per rule 4-19-4 and 4-19-5(c).

An attempted slap punch without contact during a live or dead ball is a flagrant technical foul as per rule 4-19-4 and 4-19-5(b)

The proper call by rule in the video in the OP is a flagrant personal foul for fighting.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You penalize the total act including retaliation.

Exactly. You don't break it into parts. Let's say that I punch you and then you punch me -- regardless of the timing of the whistle, we aren't going to look at the order of the fouls in that situation. We consider it one incident -- one fight -- and penalize accordingly.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

In this game it was almost as if my partner was the ONLY person to have actually seen it. I like to think this is not something I could ever miss, PCA or not, but it was so quick neither coach saw it either.

Don't kick yourself on this; you shouldn't see it. You can't watch the whole court.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

A connected slap punch is a flagrant technical foul? Wrong by rule.

A connected slap/punch during a live ball is a flagrant personal foul as per rule 4-19-1 and 4-19-4.

A connected slap punch during a dead ball is a flagrant technical foul as per rule 4-19-4 and 4-19-5(c).

An attempted slap punch without contact during a live or dead ball is a flagrant technical foul as per rule 4-19-4 and 4-19-5(b)

The proper call by rule in the video in the OP is a flagrant personal foul for fighting.

I know that JR, the wording may of been a bit confusing. I was definitely saying an attempted slap/punch is a flagrant T while an connected one would be a flagrant personal foul.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

I was trail on this play. The incident occurred early in the 1st period. Nothing had gone on between these two players prior the punch being thrown. Everyone on both teams was shocked (as you can hear from the video) and it was so out-of-the-blue that most people didn't even see it happen. I should know, I missed it myself! I was looking in my PCA and had nothing on it.

This is one of those instances where we must trust our partners and back them up 100% no matter what the circumstance. What the video doesn't show is the reaction from my partner after he makes the call. He actually lost control a bit and allowed his emotions to get the better of him. Having never worked with him before, and because he arrived late we hadn't had the opportunity to pre-game, to calm him down I went and asked him to go administer the T-Free throws and told him I would take care of the coach and score table for him. He went so far as to tell the player being ejected that "his season was over!!!" (Not our call of course, handled by the league.)
He later apologized for losing his cool, and for the "Season's over!" comment. Also said that he couldn't see if the contact was open or closed handed but judged it to be flagrant. I told him I had nothing on it but that if he was sure of what he saw it I would back him up.

The rest of the game went great though. Went into 4 Overtime Periods!!!!
No further incidents, excellent sportsmanship from all other participants.

In case anyone is wondering... Yes, the kid was ejected from our league.

I thought I heard him say that. Thanks for the post and welcome to the forum.

The internet is a pretty phenomenal thing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I know that JR, the wording may of been a bit confusing. I was definitely saying an attempted slap/punch is a flagrant T while an connected one would be a flagrant personal foul.

I was kinda wondering about the wording. Didn't seem like you to miss one like that.