Fight in girls game - sort of

[Mark Padgett]

Had two games last night, first one was a 6th grade "competitive" girls game. Visitors were getting splooched the entire game. Home team had a girl who was relatively tall and she pretty much controlled the game on both ends.

Middle of Q3, one of the visiting girls was guarding the tall girl who was posting up and when she received the ball, the defender just pushed her really hard in the small of the back. I was lead and blew the whistle immediately for the intentional. I didn't think it warranted a flagrant. The tall girl, much to her credit, just turned around and tossed the ball to me. The defender said something to the tall girl (I couldn't hear it) and the tall girl slapped her right across the face! Both teams and their coaches ran off the bench but everyone just kind of stood there, thank goodness. My partner and I broke it up quickly and everyone settled down.

We sorted things out by ejecting the tall girl for the slap, giving each team a bench technical (we thought that was "even"), shooting all the free throws and then getting on with the game. If I had heard the defender use profanity or something similar, I would have taken action against her, but because I didn't hear what she said, I really felt I couldn't do anything specific. There were no more incidents. BTW - the home team won by 35.

[tref]

Could the INT personal or the defenders words (even though you didnt hear them) have lead to the footers flagrant actions?

Perhaps the defender should've been tossed as well? IJS since were talking "even" (fair) and all.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by tref

Could the INT personal or the defenders words (even though you didnt hear them) have lead to the footers flagrant actions?

Perhaps the defender should've been tossed as well? IJS since were talking "even" (fair) and all.

She might have said something as innocent as "Your boyfriend's a dork".

[tref]

Your boyfriend's a dork... Nice no call! lol

Let say:

B1 shoves A1 in the back while airborne for an open court layup. A1 gets up & punches B1. A1 is charged with a flagrant T & B1s intentional personal is what instigated it.

We're tossing B1 as well, correct?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by tref

Your boyfriend's a dork... Nice no call! lol

Let say:

B1 shoves A1 in the back while airborne for an open court layup. A1 gets up & punches B1. A1 is charged with a flagrant T & B1s intentional personal is what instigated it.

We're tossing B1 as well, correct?

Really? I don't grade the severity of a foul based on the emotional reaction of the one who got fouled after the physical consequence of the foul has ended.

[VaTerp]

If the "tall" girl's initial reaction was just to toss you the ball and did not escalate until the defender said something to her AFTER the defender had already committed an intentional foul by pushing her in the back, then I don't have to hear what she said. Both are getting tossed. Or at the least, the defender is also getting a T to go along with her intentional.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tref

Your boyfriend's a dork... Nice no call! lol

Let say:

B1 shoves A1 in the back while airborne for an open court layup. A1 gets up & punches B1. A1 is charged with a flagrant T & B1s intentional personal is what instigated it.

We're tossing B1 as well, correct?

No.

And, if you do, then B1's IP is really an FP.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No.

And, if you do, then B1's IP is really an FP.

I guess I'm reading 4-18-2 wrong then...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tref

I guess I'm reading 4-18-2 wrong then...

I guess so.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by tref

Your boyfriend's a dork... Nice no call! lol

Let say:

B1 shoves A1 in the back while airborne for an open court layup. A1 gets up & punches B1. A1 is charged with a flagrant T & B1s intentional personal is what instigated it.

We're tossing B1 as well, correct?

No, An intentional personal foul was called here on B1 not a flagrant. Now if there is verbal taunting from B1 then ejecting B1 is a possibility.

[Eastshire]

4.18.2
"A1 dunks over B1 and then taunts B1. B1 retaliates and punches A1. RULING: Both A1 and B1 are charged with a flagrant technical foul for fighting and are disqualified. A1's action is defined as fighting when the taunting caused B1 to retaliate by fighting. (10-3; 10-3-6c: 10-3-8)"

I charge the defender with both an intentional foul for the push and a flagrant technical when what she says causes the tall girl to retaliate by fighting.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Both teams and their coaches ran off the bench but everyone just kind of stood there, thank goodness. My partner and I broke it up quickly and everyone settled down.

We sorted things out by ejecting the tall girl for the slap, giving each team a bench technical (we thought that was "even"), shooting all the free throws and then getting on with the game.

Even though this was a sixth grade competitive game rather than a sixth grade non-competitive game, I probably would have handled it it the same way.

By rule though, everybody who came out on the court including any of the coaches should have been given flagrant technical fouls and disqualified. The head coaches each get charged with an indirect "T". If the same number on each team leave the bench, there's no free throws and we go to the POI. If one team has more people leave the bench, the other team gets a maximum of 2 free throws and the ball at the division line for a throw-in.

NFHS rule 10 PENALTIES: (Rule 10 summary) #8b(1) if anyone cares..

[tref]

Got it! The one & only caseplay for this situation is verbal taunting during a dead ball which lead to a punch, so both are ruled flagrant.

INTs which lead to a fight cannot be upgraded.
Thanks!

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by tref

Got it! The one & only caseplay for this situation is verbal taunting during a dead ball which lead to a punch, so both are ruled flagrant.

INTs which lead to a fight cannot be upgraded.
Thanks!

Right, you don't upgrade the first foul but in this case it's pretty clear there was a second (flagrant technical) foul by the defender. It's a completely separate issue from the first foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

I guess I'm reading 4-18-2 wrong then...

The key words in 4-18-2 are "unsporting act". Intentional fouls aren't regarded as being unsporting in nature. Flagrant fouls can be, as Bob said.