Help with a rule.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What's the difference if the ball is the only thing that makes contact with an opponent if the ball is thrown or held? In both cases, isn't the only contact on the play being made by the ball, whether the ball was thrown or held? And we already know as per case book play 10.3.6SitB that a thrown ball making contact with an opponent's face is a technical foul for an unsporting act.

My instruction is to try and find a rule that will allow you to call a personal foul when there is no physical contact by the player committing that personal foul. The definition of a personal foul as per 4-19-1 is that it's illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live. In the play being discussed, the thrower never contacted his opponent; the ball did. And that holds true whether the ball is held or thrown.

Well again, I am willing to learn. But question? When the dribbler uses his forearm to push the guard away, that is a PC. I still think the ball in is hand being used to push the guard away is the same as though it were his hand or arm, and constitutes illegal contact by the dribbler. A PC call.I grant you that the contact by the ball muddies the water, but (in your mind...see it...see it...) can you see yourself calling this push with the ball as a Technical foul? I sure can't...and the fact that he has used the ball to do the pushing doesn't make it a non-contact foul. Throwing it, yes....holding it and pushing, no.....Am I alone in this interpretation? If so, I repent and will change my views......Thanks for the good input.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

But question? When the dribbler uses his forearm to push the guard away, that is a PC. I still think the ball in is hand being used to push the guard away is the same as though it were his hand or arm, and constitutes illegal contact by the dribbler. A PC call.

How can it be the same when in one situation the contact is with the forearm and in the other situation the contact is with the ball?

How do you explain the situation on a throw-in where a defender reaches over the plane of the line and (1) contacts the ball, or (2) contacts the player? Same concept during a live ball, isn't it? And the rules are consistent too. Contact with the thrower is a personal foul. Contact with the ball is a technical foul. And note the ball hasn't been thrown in that situation either; the thrower is still holding it.

The problem is that we can't think. We have to use the available rules. And I'm not aware of any rule extant that would allow any official to call a personal foul without the player being called for the foul making physical contact with some part of his body on the opponent that he fouled. If someone can cite me a rule instead of an opinion though to the contrary, I'm willing to learn also.