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ChuckElias · #16 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by stripes
Who is watching the rest of the court? This would have been the topic of discussion at the next available opportunity. I will hve to live and die with missed or made calls in my area and my partner(s) will have to do the same.

Stripes, I had this exact conversation with a partner last week. He's a new guy. He took the test last year b/c he was a HS varsity head coach and felt he ought to know the rules better. But b/c of his coaching schedule, i don't think he worked more than a handful of kids' games. So this will be his first real season.

Anyway, we're working an AAU game together and he made 3 or 4 calls right in front of me in a 2 man game. So I gave the "I'm gonna have to live and die with those calls" speech. It's funny that you used the same wording and everything.

Chuck

zebraman · #17 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 03:55pm

I don't think he's saying he made up the call. I think he just counted a "real" 3-seconds, instead of waiting for 10 or 12 seconds like we do most of the time

Yeah, that would fit my definition of a make-up call too. I'm not sure it's ever a good idea to adjust play calling to make up for something that previously may have been missed. If you can't "fix it" at the time (like getting together with your partner and getting the rule correct right there), let it go and move on.

Z

ChuckElias · #18 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 06:02pm

Z, in general I totally agree with you. I wasn't defending the call, just pointing out that it wasn't a "phantom" call.

Chuck

Dan_ref · #19 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 07:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
How did the coaches react or were they not paying attention?

Great question. I was paying attention. She was questioning the call. We both knew that the call was wrong, but she did not go ballistic. Earlier in the game she asked if my partner was a first year official and I told her I did not know. (After all I am only in my second!) I did hear a lot of "Can you help your partner out?" from both benches.

Oh boy again. I know a HS coach who's a former small time D1
coach. Older guy, really nice, he just wants to enjoy
himself coaching HS basketball so he's a joy to work for.
One game I worked with this coach I was partnered with a
weak official. Not fun, my friend the coach was not a
joy to work for. At one point he said to me in a slow,
deliberate and very pissed off voice "Dan, sometimes you
just HAVE TO take control." He was right. There are times
you just have to take control.

Quote:

What I did do was on the next possession was to make a 3 second call on Team B. Team A coach gave me a "Thank You" and Team B coach just smiled.

You done good grasshopper. You done every good.

Marty Rogers · #20 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 26, 2002, 02:13pm

Yeah, if anyone knew the rule, the whole crew looks bad. But what are the chances?

This attitude is one of my pet peeves of officiating (basketball and baseball). Just because 90% of the people don't know the correct ruling, doesn't make it OK to get the call wrong. This only makes situations more difficult in future games, when officials make the CORRECT calls.
A typical comment might be, "Last week JoeRef called that a bakcourt violation. Hey, that's backcourt! Don't you know the rule?"

A responsibility of being an official is calling the game to the best of your ability. Being as fair as possible to each team, and following the rules is our way of respecting the game. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes, as I have over the years, but our actions are TEACHING everyone (players, coaches, fans) what is legal and illegal in the game. We've got to get these basic calls right. IMO

mick · #21 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 26, 2002, 02:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Marty Rogers
Yeah, if anyone knew the rule, the whole crew looks bad. But what are the chances?

This attitude is one of my pet peeves of officiating (basketball and baseball). Just because 90% of the people don't know the correct ruling, doesn't make it OK to get the call wrong. This only makes situations more difficult in future games, when officials make the CORRECT calls.
A typical comment might be, "Last week JoeRef called that a bakcourt violation. Hey, that's backcourt! Don't you know the rule?"

A responsibility of being an official is calling the game to the best of your ability. Being as fair as possible to each team, and following the rules is our way of respecting the game. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes, as I have over the years, but our actions are TEACHING everyone (players, coaches, fans) what is legal and illegal in the game. We've got to get these basic calls right. IMO

Marty,
While reffing a game, and with an audience of 50 to 500 people, it certainly does give us a wonderful opportunity to display our knowledge of the rules.

What a platform we are provided!

Our partner calls a travel on a great jump stop and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application.

Our partner calls a block on a perfectly vertical defender and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application.

Our partner calls traveling on a throw-in and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application.

Our partner goes to the wrong side of the floor for a free-throw and we go down to them waving off his call a loudly proclaim the correct rule and application.

Yessiree! We proclaim the screw up and we're looking pretty smart out there. Trouble is next game our partners don't show up.

It's yer call. It's yer opinion.

mick

Marty Rogers · #22 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 26, 2002, 09:50pm

Mick:

I wasn't advocating that we overrule/change our partner's calls. In fact, I would have to live with these calls as you have described in your post. I also was not implying that we are on the court refereeing to show off our rules knowledge. No matter how dismal things are going, I would never show-up or embarass my partner, even though I feel like crawling into a hole.

My concern was with the attitude of being satisfied with a wrong ruling, as long as most people didn't know you blew the call. Perhaps the goals I set for myself are too high.
I want to know every rule. If I'm not sure, I look it up, and study it again and again. I want to follow every mechanic and procedure expected of me for a NFHS referee while officiating a HS game. When referees aren't striving equally as hard do their best, it hurts the game for everyone involved.

mick · #23 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 26, 2002, 11:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Marty Rogers

My concern was with the attitude of being satisfied with a wrong ruling, as long as most people didn't know you blew the call. Perhaps the goals I set for myself are too high.
I want to know every rule. If I'm not sure, I look it up, and study it again and again. I want to follow every mechanic and procedure expected of me for a NFHS referee while officiating a HS game. When referees aren't striving equally as hard do their best, it hurts the game for everyone involved.

Marty,
Not surprisingly, we're probably on the same page.

Regarding:

"Yeah, if anyone knew the rule, the whole crew looks bad. But what are the chances?"

When we impose ourselves, without being asked, into a situation where our partners made a bad call, we are telling everyone that is watching, that "we" have erred. Now, everyone knows, not only the 1%-10% that know the rules, but also the 99% that only know that they are at a game.

Ideally, we know all the rules and all the implications because, as you said, we wear out our books by turning the pages.

But, we are gonna have partners that kick a few more than we kick ourselves. It is bad if the partner doesn't know he goofed. It would be better if the partner asks for help if he really feels bad. More likely, he made the call and then asked himself, "Did I kick that one?"

Our experience helps us when we make an "ugly". We weigh the game situation (score, time, place). Then we decide whether, or not, we should say anything or whether, or not, we should leave it alone. Either way, I think we all agree, that eventually we will discuss the play. There are times when we can go to a partner, without being asked, to bail 'im out, when everyone in the gym knows he murdered a call. I know, I have said thanks more than once when a partner came down and asked if I "got a good look at that one?"

Other times, we can know we were so wrong on a big'un, that we may go confer with our partners just to tell them, "Hey, I'm gonna change my call because I'm stoopid, and I would like you to nod your head in agreement."; and that conference appears to the audience like we actually determined something correctly.

But then, you're an Ump, you know this stuff.

mick

Marty Rogers · #24 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 27, 2002, 05:15pm

Mick:

I agree with everything you posted. Thanks for the response.

Marty

DrakeM · #25 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 27, 2002, 06:12pm

"The only thing I would add is this: if your partner does it again in the same game, then pull out a piece of Bubblicious gum - preferably sugarless - and begin chewing it. That way, you will have to remove yourself from the game because of the choking hazard, and won't have to work with that guy anymore!"

Rocky,
NIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!!!!!!