Good luck or not?

[bainsey]

Wow, where to start?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Fixed it for you.

First of all, you never fix someone's quote. That's simply bad form. You leave it alone, with the exception of "[sic]" for misspellings or grammatical errors, and put your thoughts after it.

And more importantly, much of what we do indeed DOES have a ripple effect. That's no opinion. That's a fact, and I'm stunned you can't see that.

Telling their kids to shake our hands only reinforces a pleasantry; that's it. The best way a coach can stress respect for the officials is to display it during the game; not insist on a meaningless formality before the game.

I won't disagree with the latter sentence, but think about the former. What do you think players learn from this mandated pleasantry? RESPECT, sir! And it carries over into the game.

If a player shakes your hand, and you're keeping an attitude of "you're only doing this, kid, because your coach told you to," then you're often dismissing the very respect the coach is trying to teach. If you have knowledge that a coach/player is being disingenuous, then fine, but until then, lighten up a little and enjoy the respect we sometimes claim others lack for us.

This is hyperbole ... unless you really think RD is going to damage player/official relations by his anonymous statements on an officiating board.

Not at all. I'm far more concerned about our actions and attitudes on the floor. That's where it counts.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Not at all. I'm far more concerned about our actions and attitudes on the floor. That's where it counts.

So you're admitting the part I quoted was, indeed, hyperbole?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

And more importantly, much of what we do indeed DOES have a ripple effect. That's no opinion. That's a fact, and I'm stunned you can't see that.

It was your stated opinion that expressing (in this forum) a dislike for this formality is somehow going to make us seem "more distant and unapproachable." In that context, your "ripple effect" metaphor is silly opinion.

Originally Posted by bainsey

I won't disagree with the latter sentence, but think about the former. What do you think players learn from this mandated pleasantry? RESPECT, sir! And it carries over into the game.

You don't teach respect to kids through ceremony. They see that crap for what it is. That's my opinion.

Originally Posted by bainsey

If a player shakes your hand, and you're keeping an attitude of "you're only doing this, kid, because your coach told you to," then you're often dismissing the very respect the coach is trying to teach.

No, I'm dismissing a freaking ceremony. I'll judge their respect by how they act during the game. If there's a verified correlation between teams who perform this formality and how they act towards officials during the game, I haven't seen it.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Get a grip and come down from your high horse

"High horse" is indeed an effective methaphor, but it's often used by those who don't want to meet a standard.

It's your stated opinion that expressing (in this forum) a dislike for this formality is somehow going to make us seem "more distant and unapproachable."

Yes, that's my opinion, but that's not what I said. I said "much of what we do has a ripple effect." That's a fact.

You don't teach respect to kids through ceremony. They see that crap for what it is.

So shaking hands is now a crappy move? Wow, you're cynical, and that's my opinion.

Certainly, one who shakes my hand one minute is not going to get away with cursing me out the next, but that's very rare, and I will remember the handshake, because the kids made a effort -- mandated or otherwise -- to be sportsmanlike. That's something that needs to be respected, not scrutinized.

[26 Year Gap]

How many here can remember even one handshake with an official as a player?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

How many here can remember even one handshake with an official as a player?

I cannot. But then again this was not the practice when I lived. I do remember when people will not shake my hand in and out of officiating. It tells me something about their relationship with me or maybe what they think of me. And yes it is usually not a positive interaction, which is why I continue to say, if you purposely ignore someone trying to give you a handshake that will be remembered by some longer than you think.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot. But then again this was not the practice when I lived. I do remember when people will not shake my hand in and out of officiating. It tells me something about their relationship with me or maybe what they think of me. And yes it is usually not a positive interaction, which is why I continue to say, if you purposely ignore someone trying to give you a handshake that will be remembered by some longer than you think.

Peace

I don't think anyone here has advocated ignoring a handshake attempt. I may have missed it, though.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

How many here can remember even one handshake with an official as a player?

I shook J. Dallas Shirley's hand in Arlington, VA on Feb 13, 1966. Haven't washed it since

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by justacoach

I shook J. Dallas Shirley's hand in Arlington, VA on Feb 13, 1966. Haven't washed it since

Sounds OO to me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

"High horse" is indeed an effective methaphor, but it's often used by those who don't want to meet a standard.

I deleted it because it was over the top; I apologize.

You're half-wrong (by omission) about when it's used. It's used when someone presents a standard that's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Yes, that's my opinion, but that's not what I said. I said "much of what we do has a ripple effect." That's a fact.

And out of context, your statement is almost a truism. It's true because it's so vague.
In context, it's silly opinion, because you're saying that RD's expression of dislike for this particular ceremony has a ripple effect on sportsmanship with players who will never read this board.

If you really believe this, then I take back my statement that it was hyperbole.

It's stupid.

Originally Posted by bainsey

So shaking hands is now a crappy move? Wow, you're cynical, and that's my opinion.

I didn't say it was a crappy move. Thinking it has any bearing on a player's sportsmanship is crap (hyperbolic metaphor). Compared to actually teaching and modeling sportsmanship, it's crap. Kids see through it. Shaking hands is pointless without the teaching; and it's not necessary with it.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Certainly, one who shakes my hand one minute is not going to get away with cursing me out the next, but that's very rare, and I will remember the handshake, because the kids made a effort -- mandated or otherwise -- to be sportsmanlike. That's something that needs to be respected, not scrutinized.

I don't remember which teams shake my hand and which ones don't. If my wife asked me when I got home from the game, I probably wouldn't remember. I don't scrutinize it, either.

I think the idea of hiding from them is silly. But I also think it's silly to give too much credence to a formality.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I deleted it because it was over the top; I apologize.

Accepted.

In context, it's silly opinion, because you're saying that RD's expression of dislike for this particular ceremony has a ripple effect on sportsmanship with players who will never read this board.

No sir, that's not what I said. Go take another look. I said, the ripple effect comes from our actions on the court, not from an opinion here.

I didn't say it was a crappy move. Thinking it has any bearing on a player's sportsmanship is crap (hyperbolic metaphor). Compared to actually teaching and modeling sportsmanship, it's crap. Kids see through it. Shaking hands is pointless without the teaching; and it's not necessary with it.

Pointless without? Certainly, then it reeks of being disingenuous. Not necessary? Perhaps. However, I believe it's typically a part of a coach's standard for teaching sportsmanship. Until you have evidence otherwise, you'd have to go with that. Will some kids shake your hand reluctantly? Certainly. But, they'll typically get it as they grow.

I don't remember which teams shake my hand and which ones don't. If my wife asked me when I got home from the game, I probably wouldn't remember.

Therein lies the difference. I certainly would. Perhaps not a month or two later, but that night? Absolutely. I have a lot of respect those who choose to step it up.

[Adam]

[QUOTE=bainsey;720140]No sir, that's not what I said. Go take another look. I said, the ripple effect comes from our actions on the court, not from an opinion here.[quote]
But the context was about a comment made on this board by someone who had already indicated he allows the handshakes in spite of his personal preference.

You wrote, "to even suggest that...." That's what I called hyperbole (from the beginning), and I stand by that now; given what you wrote above.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Pointless without? Certainly, then it reeks of being disingenuous. Not necessary? Perhaps. However, I believe it's typically a part of a coach's standard for teaching sportsmanship. Until you have evidence otherwise, you'd have to go with that. Will some kids shake your hand reluctantly? Certainly. But, they'll typically get it as they grow.

There's no evidence either way, so our opinions on this are equally valid.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Therein lies the difference. I certainly would. Perhaps not a month or two later, but that night? Absolutely. I have a lot of respect those who choose to step it up.

"Step it up?" Really? Yeah, that's the difference. It's no more stepping it up than when I salute an officer. 50% of the time, I do it because I have to. 50% of the time I do it because I actually respect that officer. None of them will ever know the difference.

Personally, I have no more nor less respect for those that do as opposed to those that don't.