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-   -   Messy situation (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/60279-messy-situation.html)

Camron Rust Thu Dec 30, 2010 04:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor (Post 710932)
No argument with this, but it begets the question "Were the FTs merited?" If the T was assessed due to a bookkeeping error, logic says that both the T and resulting FTs are unmerited.

It seems to me that since the T was a result of the bookkeeping error, it can be corrected(rescinded) any time until the R approves the final score per 2-11-11. The resulting FT's, on the other hand, would fall into the "unmerited" category and must be corrected within the time constraints specified under 2-10.

Just playing devil's advocate.......
No...many of the correctable errors are often a result of bookkeeping errors. You can always fix the error in the book, but you can't fix the FTs after a time limit.

You can correct the actual bookkeeping error at any time, but you can't correct the ramifications (FT's, T's, etc.) of a bookkeeping error after time limits have expired.

Adam Thu Dec 30, 2010 05:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 710975)
If you insist he can't have both (the timeout and the t effects gone), then why not give him the choice. (Though I think you can say that he paid for the timeout with the free throws and lose the rest. Sure it was a cheap timeout but since he didn't get to choose whether to pay ...)
What I'm saying is you can't go back after the 2-10 time frame and take away the free throws, no matter how you slice it.

What if that foul was the team's 6th, and then they only committed one more foul that half, resulting in two made free throws. Do you go back and wipe those FTs off, too?

TimTaylor Thu Dec 30, 2010 05:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 710985)
No...many of the correctable errors are often a result of bookkeeping errors. You can always fix the error in the book, but you can't fix the FTs after a time limit.
I thought that's what I said........

Quote:
You can correct the actual bookkeeping error at any time, but you can't correct the ramifications (FT's, T's, etc.) of a bookkeeping error after time limits have expired.
Here is where I disagree. The only ramification you can't correct after a certain time limit by specific rule are the FTs. If the only penalty of the T was the FTs, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem is the unwarranted T also counts as a team foul towards the bonus, and therefore continues to unfairly and unjustly penalize that team for the rest of that half through no fault of their own. No matter how you try to cut it, this is not in the spirit of fair play. Common sense says rescind the unwarranted administrative T and remove the foul from the team foul count. The rule book doesn't cover every eventuality - sometimes you just need to step up and do the right thing.

Adam Thu Dec 30, 2010 05:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor (Post 710995)
I thought that's what I said........



Here is where I disagree. The only ramification you can't correct after a certain time limit by specific rule are the FTs. If the only penalty of the T was the FTs, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem is the unwarranted T also counts as a team foul towards the bonus, and therefore continues to unfairly and unjustly penalize that team for the rest of that half through no fault of their own. No matter how you try to cut it, this is not in the spirit of fair play. Common sense says rescind the unwarranted administrative T and remove the foul from the team foul count. The rule book doesn't cover every eventuality - sometimes you just need to step up and do the right thing.
What about excess timeouts? remove the T and still let him keep the extra timeout? The bulk of the punishment can't be rescinded even by your reasoning.

TimTaylor Thu Dec 30, 2010 06:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710997)
What about excess timeouts? remove the T and still let him keep the extra timeout? The bulk of the punishment can't be rescinded even by your reasoning.
Confused me for a second...OP was about a roster issue....had to go back a couple pages & look.

Addressing this from the point of a T issued for an excessive TO that turned out not to be. Even if they request a timeout in excess of the allotted number, we still grant it and they get to use it - it just costs them a T per 5-12-2. Since the TO that started the whole mess actually was their last allotted time out and they got to use it, simply rescinding the T should take care of it.

just another ref Thu Dec 30, 2010 07:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710993)
What I'm saying is you can't go back after the 2-10 time frame and take away the free throws, no matter how you slice it.
I think we all agreed with that, didn't we? In the OP, it was within the time limit. Mistake was discovered, T was erased, free throws are now unmerited. Take them off the board and resume at POI. This work for you?

rockyroad Thu Dec 30, 2010 08:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 711008)
I think we all agreed with that, didn't we? In the OP, it was within the time limit. Mistake was discovered, T was erased, free throws are now unmerited. Take them off the board and resume at POI. This work for you?
Works for me...they were unmerited free throws due to a bookkeeping error. The time frame requirements are met - take the points off the board, erase the T, and play on.

Adam Thu Dec 30, 2010 09:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor (Post 711003)
Confused me for a second...OP was about a roster issue....had to go back a couple pages & look.

Addressing this from the point of a T issued for an excessive TO that turned out not to be. Even if they request a timeout in excess of the allotted number, we still grant it and they get to use it - it just costs them a T per 5-12-2. Since the TO that started the whole mess actually was their last allotted time out and they got to use it, simply rescinding the T should take care of it.

Except that the TO at the time cost them two free throws and (possibly) possession that we can't rescind. The coach bought an extra TO with the T, now you're taking that away and giving him what back? A team foul?

Adam Thu Dec 30, 2010 09:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 711008)
I think we all agreed with that, didn't we? In the OP, it was within the time limit. Mistake was discovered, T was erased, free throws are now unmerited. Take them off the board and resume at POI. This work for you?
At this point I'm not sure what we've all agreed on. The argument seemed to be that since it's a "bookkeeping error," it can be corrected (the whole thing) at any time. I'd like to see an interp on this particular issue to be honest.

Judtech Thu Dec 30, 2010 09:48pm
I'll stir the pudding. The argument could also be that we JUDGED it to be a bookkeeping error. After we render our judgement, unless covered by the CE section, that judgement is final. Same as any other foul or violation. Again, just b/c we recieve other information doesnt affect anything. If I am doing a game and I call a foul but see on the video screen it was clearly NOT a foul, am I going to take it back?
Still, if we take time to sort through it at the table before issuing any T, it would go along way to eliminating this problem.

Camron Rust Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:05pm
After the T, the other team got possession, are we going to cancel the points they scored on that possession or cancel the PC foul committed by their team on that possession...all under the premise that it was a bookkeeping error and everything that followed from it was erroneous?

TimTaylor Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by judtech (Post 711044)
still, if we take time to sort through it at the table before issuing any t, it would go along way to eliminating this problem.
+1

Judtech Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 711049)
After the T, the other team got possession, are we going to cancel the points they scored on that possession or cancel the PC foul committed by their team on that possession...all under the premise that it was a bookkeeping error and everything that followed from it was erroneous?
You mean a "Do Over"?:eek:

TimTaylor Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech (Post 711044)
Still, if we take time to sort through it at the table before issuing any T, it would go along way to eliminating this problem.
And I'll add that I'm going to take a hard look at the home book. If it's sloppy and having problems, while the visiting book is, by contrast, right on top of things, I might go as far as to rule the visiting book as the official book from that point on per 2-11-11. (And before we all start belaboring the point, there's nothing in the rule as to when the referee can do this - they could do it at any time during the game they felt it necessary.) Might be a great way to send a message.

Thoughts?

rockyroad Fri Dec 31, 2010 02:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 711049)
After the T, the other team got possession, are we going to cancel the points they scored on that possession or cancel the PC foul committed by their team on that possession...all under the premise that it was a bookkeeping error and everything that followed from it was erroneous?
WTF are you talking about? The Op'er was very clear that the Visiting Coach brought the roster issue to their attention as soon as the second free throw was shot...so you're just making crap up now? For what purpose?

In the OP, it was a bookkeeping error that led to unmerited free throws - the time frame is intact. Fix it.


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