Ugly Timeout Situation - Discussed Before

[CDurham]

Team Black is moving the ball from backcourt to frontcourt and gets trapped at the division line. I am in the Trail opposite table and my partner is in the Lead tableside and in front of Black's bench. He here's a timeout request and double checks to make sure it is coming from Black and that they have player control of the ball. In both cases they do.

Before he hits hit whistle, the ball is stolen by White and then my partner hits his whistle with the timeout as White has the ball. I go to him and ask if he double checked to make sure Black was in control of the ball when he heard the request (as I didn't hear it so I wasn't any help). He said yesso we gave the ball to Black. Needless to say the Coach for White wasn't happy, which whats new?, and he continued his argument even after the game at half court

Any thoughts???

[BktBallRef]

Yep. Until they change this stupid rule and stop allowing coachs to request TO, we'll continue to have this issue.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CDurham

He hears a timeout request and double checks to make sure it is coming from Black and that they have player control of the ball. In both cases they do.

Any thoughts???

From "POE #3 - TIME-OUTS" in the 2008-09 rule book:
The proper granting of time-outs continue to be of great concern. During live ball situations, it is imperative the officials ensure player control before granting a time-out. Additionally, officials must ensure that the time-out request is coming from a player or the head coach of the team in control.

Your partner fully followed the directives given to us by the NFHS rulesmakers. He did both and then blew his whistle. If the coach has a problem with that, tell him to go whine at the stoopid monkey rulesmaker that dreamed up this crappy rule, not the outstanding gentleman in stripes who did exactly what he was supposed to do.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

During live ball situations, it is imperative the officials ensure player control before granting a time-out. Additionally, officials must ensure that the time-out request is coming from a player or the head coach of the team in control.

Since the Syracuse problem back in February, we've been advised by one of our interpreters to reverse this point of emphasis:

Officials must ensure that the time-out request is coming from a player or the head coach of the team in control. Additionally, during live ball situations, it is imperative the officials ensure player control before granting a time-out.

In other words, here in our little corner of Connecticut, the last thing that we do is ensure player control before granting the timeout. You won't find this in either the NFHS, nor the IAABO, manual, or rulebook. This should help us avoid the situation that Mr. Cahill found himself in back in February.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In other words, here in our little corner of Connecticut, the last thing that we do is ensure player control before granting the timeout. You won't find this in either the NFHS, nor the IAABO, manual, or rulebook. This should help us avoid the situation that Mr. Cahill found himself in back in February.

Unfortunately, while you're doing so you're also avoiding the purpose and intent of the rule. And in some situations, you may also be penalizing a team that has asked for a legitimate TO which you have refused without any concrete rules basis for doing so.

If a team has player control at the time of a time-out request, you have no rules justification to deny that request.

Are there any other rules that your little corner of Connecticut has chosen to change?

Lah me.......

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a team has player control at the time of a time-out request, you have no rules justification to deny that request.

If you're looking at the bench to make sure that it is indeed the correct team requesting the timeout, and that it is indeed the head coach who is making the request, then how do you know that the correct team has player control, without looking back at the court, and the player in control?

Your right, we are not following any NFHS rule, or for that matter, any NFHS, or IAABO, mechanics, but the wordng of these references is "fuzzy".

The spirit and purpose of the rule is to ensure that the correct team, the head coach of said team, and a player on said team has player control, all three at the same time. Tough to do if you have to visually observe the team bench, which forces, in some, but not all, cases, the official to turn away from the action on the court.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If you're looking at the bench to make sure that it is indeed the correct team requesting the timeout, and that it is indeed the head coach who is making the request, then how do you know that the correct team has player control, without looking back at the court, and the player in control?

Your right, we are not following any NFHS rule, or for that matter, any NFHS, or IAABO, mechanics, but the wordng of these references is "fuzzy".

The spirit and purpose of the rule is to ensure that the correct team, the head coach of said team, and a player on said team has player control, all three at the same time. Tough to do if you have to visually observe the team bench, which forces, in some, but not all, cases, the official to turn away from the action on the court.

You know there's player control because you're looking at the court when the request is given. If you're looking to the coach to verify that, then looking back to the court *again*......never mind, JR have covered it quite well already.

Last night we had a nutcutter, my first one this season. This exact thing happened in OT. Player trapped in the corner, I'm in front of the bench, 2-person trail. I hear a timeout request, player clearly has possession, I look to the bench to see the coach trying to get my attention, verifying he was, indeed requesting a timeout. By this time air went into whistle, the ball was knocked loose. I couldn't possibly care -- it's a legally requested (and granted) time out, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I took grief. Yes, I told the other coach that the player had the ball when the coach requested the timeout. Yes, the other coach disagreed and was annoyed. No, I don't care. Like I told the other coach, I'd do the same thing if he was the one requesting the timeout. Until they change the rule, I'm going to continue granting the timeout in this situation because that's what I'm supposed to do.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Since the Syracuse problem back in February, we've been advised by one of our interpreters to reverse this point of emphasis:

Officials must ensure that the time-out request is coming from a player or the head coach of the team in control. Additionally, during live ball situations, it is imperative the officials ensure player control before granting a time-out.

In other words, here in our little corner of Connecticut, the last thing that we do is ensure player control before granting the timeout. You won't find this in either the NFHS, nor the IAABO, manual, or rulebook. This should help us avoid the situation that Mr. Cahill found himself in back in February.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Unfortunately, while you're doing so you're also avoiding the purpose and intent of the rule. And in some situations, you may also be penalizing a team that has asked for a legitimate TO which you have refused without any concrete rules basis for doing so. If a team has player control at the time of a time-out request, you have no rules justification to deny that request. Are there any other rules that your little corner of Connecticut has chosen to change?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If you're looking at the bench to make sure that it is indeed the correct team requesting the timeout, and that it is indeed the head coach who is making the request, then how do you know that the correct team has player control, without looking back at the court, and the player in control? Your right, we are not following any NFHS rule, or for that matter, any NFHS, or IAABO, mechanics, but the wordng of these references is "fuzzy".

The spirit and purpose of the rule is to ensure that the correct team, the head coach of said team, and a player on said team has player control, all three at the same time. Tough to do if you have to visually observe the team bench, which forces, in some, but not all, cases, the official to turn away from the action on the court.

Just found this on the IAABO website:

A player or a Head Coach may request a time-out. The request may be oral or visual.

An official may grant the time-out if the ball is live and the clock is running when:

(a) the ball is in control (holding or dribbling) or is at the disposal of a player of his/her
team.

(b) the ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player
is directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

Upon hearing/seeing the request for time-out, the official next must check/view the
situation and rule whether or not the request can be granted.

It's not in the NFHS rulebook. It's probably not in the NFHS mechanics manual. It's not in the current IAABO mechanics manual. But it is on the international website. That's the citation that IAABO members need to know. You NFHS guys are on your own.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CDurham

Any thoughts???

A few questions. Was your partner John Cahill? Was the Black Team coach Jim Boeheim?