Attacking ref: "Part of the game"

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

WTH does that mean?

You want him to jump in between two 6'7" eighteen year olds or do you want him to tackle the 6'7" teenager who's already thrown a larger man to the floor?

I've always been told to never, ever place my hands on a student-athlete.

Hey, I knew my comments wouldn't be received well. I think Rut is the only one (so far) to see it rationally and I have no problem with his response. I was just wondering why nobody mentioned it.

As far as what the trail did NOT do? Are you guys serious? What else did the trail have to look at other than two kids who were pushing each other? The C called what the trail failed to call. That is all I'm saying and...hold on let me look at it for the 100th time...yep, the trail has a count and either looks right past this match-up to the ball or ignores it. There were three players...hold on let me look at it for the 101st time...yep, three players in the backcourt so the C really should have been focusing elsewhere.

The kid was dead wrong for what he did, BUT there are other things to consider in this video.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

As far as what the trail did NOT do? Are you guys serious? What else did the trail have to look at other than two kids who were pushing each other? The C called what the trail failed to call. That is all I'm saying and...hold on let me look at it for the 100th time...yep, the trail has a count and either looks right past this match-up to the ball or ignores it. There were three players...hold on let me look at it for the 101st time...yep, three players in the backcourt so the C really should have been focusing elsewhere.

The kid was dead wrong for what he did, BUT there are other things to consider in this video.

Sigh. Exactly as I figured. You need to go back and look at it for the 102nd time but this time get somebody to watch it with you that can explain some officiating basics to you. Neither the trail or the center was out of position when the initial contact and first foul occurred. The initial contact near the endline after the free throw was on the other side of the lane with the defender directly inside the white player and also in a direct line with the trail. The trail was completely straight-lined, which is very common from that position right after a free throw when the players start upcourt. Because he is straightlined, there is nowayinhell the trail can ever see who initiates any contact between those 2 players. That's why the C has to keep an eye on that play while he's releasing upcourt. He has to get crap like this because the trail can't. The C is the only one who can possibly see the separation and what's going on. In this situation, the C did exactly what he was supposed to do. The trail didn't miss a damn thing because there is nowayinhell any official in the world could ever make a call in that situation without guessing.

The bottom line is that the officials as a team caught the first foul and the succeeding fouls. When they do that, they should never be second-guessed like this imo. But that's just me.

Yup, as I said that's exactly what I expected from you, Tom. 'Nuff said.

That's my opinion and I really don't care if you don't receive it well.

[rockyroad]

Have to agree with JR about the straight-lined business...also - how do you know that the T wasn't just about to crack hiswhistle, but the C beat him to it?

Oh, that's right - you don't know that.


Oh well...

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Neither the trail or the center was out of position when the initial contact and first foul occurred.

The C should not let 7 players go down the court and stay with three players and the Trail. What if two of the other players start pushing each other? The Lead is supposed to watch 7 players? The trail official is not stacked on this play. He was not in the best position, but he was not "completely straight-lined." To be "completely straight-lined" he would have had to have been at the three-point line if he kept going in the same path he was going.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The initial contact near the endline after the free throw was on the other side of the lane with the defender directly inside the white player and also in a direct line with the trail. The trail was completely straight-lined, which is very common from that position right after a free throw when the players start upcourt. Because he is straightlined, there is nowayinhell the trail can ever see who initiates any contact between those 2 players. That's why the C has to keep an eye on that play while he's releasing upcourt. He has to get crap like this because the trail can't. The C is the only one who can possibly see the separation and what's going on. In this situation, the C did exactly what he was supposed to do. The trail didn't miss a damn thing because there is nowayinhell any official in the world could ever make a call in that situation without guessing.

The Trail is NOT completely stacked. Also, maybe it would help if he used his outside hand to chop the clock. Then, when players - three players - take a path on the opposite side of the court he should make at least an attempt to come on the court as opposed to staying near the sideline. His first step is straight up the court even though his competitive match-up is on the other side of the lane. If his first step would have been in the direction of his competitive match-up he would have had a better angle to see all three players - the players he is responsible for at the time.

The C NEVER takes his eyes off the ball leaving the new Lead with 7 players. The largest pack of players - the group the C should move down the court with - are not in his field of vision because his eyes are glued to the ball. If this action would have occurred with two players on the opposite side from where it happened the new Lead would have to have eyes on 7 players or nobody would get it. If the C had his eyes on the pack of players, the Trail would have still had his eyes where they were - this is normal 3-person officiating. It is not normal for two officials to watch 3 players come up the court when there is no press on.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, as I said that's exactly what I expected from you, Tom. 'Nuff said.

I'm not sure what you expected from me. I don't officiate where you (wherever you are) or Tony are. If I did I'm confident I would have success because I kind of know what I'm doing. Both your opinions only matter in a "Kingdom" you have created. If you are the one who criticized someone for being on Facebook you are no different. In fact it is worse when you want to go unquestioned in a social environment based on your post count or status as a crabby old man. Sounds like a high school group of friends to me. What I expect from you is for your behavior to continue unless you have several people disagree with you. If that happens you (and others in your "group") will simply go away. When the ball goes up, your social status doesn't matter one bit; the game matters.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tomegun

The C should not let 7 players go down the court and stay with three players and the Trail.

I didn't read all of this thread, but we usualy use "C with the second-to-last defender" or "C with the last 2/3 of the pack"

[REFVA]

Hope everyone is doing well, happy Holidays,
The act by that young man is un-acceptable and hopefully gets what he diserves. At my last association meeting last week, It was 100% in agreement, there was nothing that fellow official had done to have that player react that way. Totally horific behavior by that player. The sad part is that I'm seeing more and more act of violence off the court as well not only from players but fans. I did a Varsity boys game last year that we had to have sheriffs escort us to our vehicles. I love officiating very much but this is getting ridiculous..

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Hey, I knew my comments wouldn't be received well. I think Rut is the only one (so far) to see it rationally and I have no problem with his response. I was just wondering why nobody mentioned it.

As far as what the trail did NOT do? Are you guys serious? What else did the trail have to look at other than two kids who were pushing each other? The C called what the trail failed to call. That is all I'm saying and...hold on let me look at it for the 100th time...yep, the trail has a count and either looks right past this match-up to the ball or ignores it. There were three players...hold on let me look at it for the 101st time...yep, three players in the backcourt so the C really should have been focusing elsewhere.

The trail is responsible for the ball and the count. He picks up the player with the ball as he receives the throw-in and begins the count. The foul by the thrower. The C gets the foul as he should, stays with the play and gets the T.

Gotta love you camp types that think everything has to be done one specific way. Back on my Ignore list for you.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Hey, I knew my comments wouldn't be received well. I think Rut is the only one (so far) to see it rationally and I have no problem with his response. I was just wondering why nobody mentioned it.

As far as what the trail did NOT do? Are you guys serious? What else did the trail have to look at other than two kids who were pushing each other? The C called what the trail failed to call. That is all I'm saying and...hold on let me look at it for the 100th time...yep, the trail has a count and either looks right past this match-up to the ball or ignores it. There were three players...hold on let me look at it for the 101st time...yep, three players in the backcourt so the C really should have been focusing elsewhere.

The kid was dead wrong for what he did, BUT there are other things to consider in this video.

Tom, I'm answering from Pg3 so I may be repeating what someone else already said.

First, I agree the Trail should have had better eyes on this play. But that's where our agreements end.

When I'm the C on a made free throw I'm not releasing until the ball is inbounded. The initial shoving that occurred happened immediately after the throw-in and easily within the peripheral of the C's eyesight. And when the initial shoving occurred there were at least 5 players still in the backcourt, maybe even 6. So the C was properly covering the court on this play, IMO.

Also, there is no way the C pushed the player. The player jumped back as a reaction the Technical call.

Now, as far as you blaming the officials for what happened, I missed those posts. Maybe someone could quote one of those posts for me since I can't find them.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Now, as far as you blaming the officials for what happened, I missed those posts. Maybe someone could quote one of those posts for me since I can't find them.

I didn't, but you know how some people are.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I didn't, but you know how some people are.

Nope, the closest you came was saying you didn't know whether things would have been different had they done things as you suggest.

As far as I'm concerned, that's not very close to it even if I disagree.