Attacking ref: "Part of the game"

[Rich]

To add to this:

I take back what I said about the mechanics being impeccable -- the C should've had the previous foul that set up the free throws -- instead the L called across the lane. It seems that the C was standing in quicksand there instead of stepping down a few steps to pick up that baseline drive. It didn't appear that the L even closed down or even contemplated rotating there. It seemed there was enough time for the L to rotate if he was ready to do so. Instead he seemed to be planted in one spot.

Also, the positioning of the C on the free throws should've been further on the court (there's no way he can step down and see a violation across the lane on the sideline).

That said, I have no problem with the C holding on a second and assessing the backcourt situation before heading downcourt. No comment on the trail, but it did seem as though he did a lot of standing around when that first whistle blew. I would've liked to have seen some aggressive closing down on that shoving match from more than just the C.

Regardless, there's no blame to be put on the officials here. The officials didn't assault themselves. And the calls made by the C were certainly correct, including the technical and ejection that preceded the assault.

[tomegun]

Rich, what is normal (for me) is to be aware of press versus no pressure. Once the C makes this determination, he or she moves up the court with the largest pack of players because he or she may have to make a call from sideline to sideline that the Trail or Lead cannot see.

Snaq, what exactly does it mean to "release upcourt"? I know I move in transition based on how many players are in the backcourt and where the largest group of players are. Without pressure and the largest group of players moving up court I would not lock on the ball like the C did in this play.

Nobody can say with certainty what would have happened if the Trail called the first foul so nobody can say it wouldn't have had an impact on the results.

Do officials realize we can always say "...has to get crap like this because the ... can't"? Fill in the blanks for any official and any spot on the court. This is one of the (fortunately) few times doing this helped...coincidentally, these plays seem to always involve watching the ball.

Hmm, I'm not sure how I would tell the official, but please don't confuse face to face conversation with typed words on an internet forum. Communication on here is similar to emails and I'm sure you get enough at home and work to know the delivery is often misunderstood.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Regardless, there's no blame to be put on the officials here. The officials didn't assault themselves. And the calls made by the C were certainly correct, including the technical and ejection that preceded the assault.

I agree with you on this. I was just pointing out some other things I noticed in this video. I knew how some would receive what I typed - even what you just said may be considered wrong by some since your opinion isn't saying that the official did everything right.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Rich, what is normal (for me) is to be aware of press versus no pressure. Once the C makes this determination, he or she moves up the court with the largest pack of players because he or she may have to make a call from sideline to sideline that the Trail or Lead cannot see.

Snaq, what exactly does it mean to "release upcourt"? I know I move in transition based on how many players are in the backcourt and where the largest group of players are. Without pressure and the largest group of players moving up court I would not lock on the ball like the C did in this play.

Nobody can say with certainty what would have happened if the Trail called the first foul so nobody can say it wouldn't have had an impact on the results.

Do officials realize we can always say "...has to get crap like this because the ... can't"? Fill in the blanks for any official and any spot on the court. This is one of the (fortunately) few times doing this helped...coincidentally, these plays seem to always involve watching the ball.

Hmm, I'm not sure how I would tell the official, but please don't confuse face to face conversation with typed words on an internet forum. Communication on here is similar to emails and I'm sure you get enough at home and work to know the delivery is often misunderstood.

I'll say this, for me as C, I would have probably done as this guy did; hanging back and watching the tussle as I drift towards the division line. Right about the time he makes the call is when I'd turn my head and head down court (assuuming there's nothing going on).

It seems to me you're suggesting the C should have turned his head and sprinted downcourt as soon as he noted there was no press. I disagree with that (if it's what you're saying).

Fair enough, but if you were evaluating him and emailing him the results, would you have worded it that way? The limitations of email/written communication usually mean we should be more careful, not less. Although I should point out that I recognize my own failing in this regard.

Unless you think the player had an issue with the C personally, I can say with pretty strong certainty it wouldn't have mattered.

[bbcoach7]

Way too mechanical and in depth for me, quite sure someone may be over-complicating the krap outa this in an egocentric attempt to win an argument.

You guys know as well or better than me, these physical skirmishes tend to begin much earlier than when they explode. Players start jawing, getting "chippy," maybe a little extra hands on or pushing that is borderline incidental or intent. My point is that probably there was a good reason that the C had eyes exclusively on the three close to the T. Plus, did he? Looks to me like the back of the C's head is facing the camera

JR, nobody can tell where the C's eyes are! I suppose you can guess where he's looking by the direction of his head, but then you say things like, "never took his eyes off...," and you don't know that. Your argument is in part based on an assumption you can't prove. Eye balls can and do move side to side within their sockets! It's just as reasonable to speculate that the C just quickly scanned to his right and noticed that there was space between the 7 who just ran past him, then moved his eye balls back to the left, observed the activity and "TWEEET!" Because he was anticipating it. Because it really began 5 possessions earlier.

Finally JR, you make a big deal outa the L having to observe 7 players if the C is watching the ball. Correct mechanics for a 3 man crew aside, if this was a 2 man crew, wouldn't the L be watching 7 players? Isn't it something you've done a gazzilion times?

Then there's the stacked question. I seriously don't believe that a referee has to be 100% in line and stacked on an exact straight line in order to have his vision blocked. Just being close to on exact straight line may be enough to obscure a players arms even though most of the torso is visible, and the arms are what does the pushing.

As a coach, whether I was the HC or the VC, I'd just be pleased that it was whistled no matter who did it. Don't care and really does not matter. I also believe there's no way that the T doesn't tweet if he has vision of the initial pushing, indicating 100% stacked or not, he couldn't see it. That's a way more reasonable assumption than to think you know where the C's eyes are looking.

Sheesh

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

1) *sigh*, here we go with those who "just want to get it right". It was a non-basketball play so anyone should get it anywhere. However, the Trail does have a responsibility on this play to officiate SOMETHING. I guess some are suggesting it is normal for two officials to watch three players - one with the ball and two others - all the time. I don't think so, but according to some (JR) I need some help.

2)Humorous since JR and Tony will take their ball and go away if people don't agree with everything or almost everything they say. Unlike some, I don't officiate from my keyboard nor do I advance based on years of service in an organization.

1) Nope, some want to break down the play rationally without first looking for a reason to back-stab a fellow official. Any reason. First! Neither official was out of position. You can't officiate what you can't see. And what you can't see has to be picked up by your fellow official(s). And that's exactly what happened on this play. Do I think you need some help? Naw, you need a clue imo. You just don't have the knowledge to break down a play like this. Add that to the fact that you're always looking to find a screw-up by the guys...any screw-up...no matter the circumstances...and you get your typical Tomegun post.

2) Tom, what you say is meaningless to me. Not only do you not know what you think you know about the intricacies of basketball officiating, you invariably look for any reason you can find to crap on one of your fellow officials. You're famous for that. I honestly don't know whether you think crapping on someone else is going to make you look good, but it doesn't work that way. You whine incessantly about politics, not getting games, your association (no matter where you live) doing things wrong, etc. Sorry podner, but you just don't have the credibility for me to get that upset about anything you say.

And btw, you advanced to what? Assigning crappy summer AAU ball? Call me when you've done a few state finals like Tony, or a D2 national womens final four like Rocky.

[BktBallRef]

"2)Humorous since JR and Tony will take their ball and go away if people don't agree with everything or almost everything they say. Unlike some, I don't officiate from my keyboard nor do I advance based on years of service in an organization."

No Tom, I'm right here and have been for over 10 years. You're on my Ignore List because of you egotistical BS and campboy attitudes. No idea what officiating from your keyboard means or how many years someone has been in an organization has to do with anything. I guess it's supposed to be some kind of half-a$$ insult. I've only been a member of my local association for 12 years but have been selected by the state association to work numerous state, regional, and sectional championships, so that kinda shoots your half-a$$ insult out the window.

Please guys, stop quoting this prick so I don't have to see his garbage.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

1) JR, nobody can tell where the C's eyes are! I suppose you can guess where he's looking by the direction of his head, but then you say things like, "never took his eyes off...," and you don't know that. Your argument is in part based on an assumption you can't prove. Eye balls can and do move side to side within their sockets! It's just as reasonable to speculate that the C just quickly scanned to his right and noticed that there was space between the 7 who just ran past him, then moved his eye balls back to the left, observed the activity and "TWEEET!" Because he was anticipating it. Because it really began 5 possessions earlier.

2) Finally JR, you make a big deal outa the L having to observe 7 players if the C is watching the ball. Correct mechanics for a 3 man crew aside, if this was a 2 man crew, wouldn't the L be watching 7 players? Isn't it something you've done a gazzilion times?

3) Then there's the stacked question. I seriously don't believe that a referee has to be 100% in line and stacked on an exact straight line in order to have his vision blocked. Just being close to on exact straight line may be enough to obscure a players arms even though most of the torso is visible, and the arms are what does the pushing.

Whatintheheck are you talking about?

1) The bottom line is that the C's eyes were on the initial contact. He made the foul call. Obviously he saw what was happening. What do I care about eyeballs? I try to go by exactly what happened. See the foul; call the foul. It's that simple. Coach, I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make here, but I do agree that the C certainly may have looked off the play first to check out possible contact from the other players as they were transitioning through his area before going back to the throw-in. But overall really, that's meaningless.

2) Now you really have me confused. Afaik I've haven't posted anything so far in this thread that had anything to do with the Lead or coverage of the other 7 players. I can't find anywhere where I've even referenced them. Can you point me to where you think I did that?

3) We agree.

Are you sure you aren't confusing me with Tomegun () and maybe a post of his like #42?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Regardless, there's no blame to be put on the officials here. The officials didn't assault themselves. And the calls made by the C were certainly correct, including the technical and ejection that preceded the assault.

My point from the git-go.

[Larks]

Hold up...were debating mechanics relative to this situation?? Really?!?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Larks

Hold up...were debating mechanics relative to this situation?? Really?!?

Thank you

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tom, what you say is meaningless to me. Not only do you not know what you think you know about the intricacies of basketball officiating, you invariably look for any reason you can find to crap on one of your fellow officials. You're famous for that. I honestly don't know whether you think crapping on someone else is going to make you look good, but it doesn't work that way. You whine incessantly about politics, not getting games, your association (no matter where you live) doing things wrong, etc. Sorry podner, but you just don't have the credibility for me to get that upset about anything you say.

And btw, you advanced to what? Assigning crappy summer AAU ball? Call me when you've done a few state finals like Tony, or a D2 national womens final four like Rocky.

Honestly, you have me confused with someone else. You want to give me your number to call you? I started officiating (2 years in Arizona). I had no business doing anything more than what I got. I then moved to Las Vegas - I have worked a state final (championship) in Nevada. I moved to the DC area - I worked one Catholic finals and two semi-finals in three seasons. I moved to Mississippi and worked there for three seasons - I think I worked 2 or 3 state finals (championship) games. Is that a few state finals? I also worked college ball at all three places (JC, NAIA, DII, and on a D1 roster). Snaqs or BNR can tell you how it is as a serviceman to move around and start from scratch every few years. IMO, Rocky consistently comes from a different/more credible position than you and Tony so I give him respect for his POV, his accomplishments and the fact that he doesn't always agree with you.

Yes, I talk about politics because politics are a part of officiating like they are a part of other things in life. In my experience moving around you overcome politics by being good. I'm not sure when you have heard me whine about getting games; I have worked plenty every place I have been. You must have me confused again. I guess several assigners have been wrong according to you and Tony.

I do assign "crappy" AAU ball, but that is not the only position I hold in my city; I'm the instructional chair. In our current system, I currently assign high school basketball. Again, I guess I'm fooling a lot of people according to you.

I guess I'm a realist and that is what you call me crapping on someone else. I could give you a long list of great officials from all across the country. Officials that I think the world of. You are focusing in on my opinion of one official (the supervisor of officials for the NCAA must have agreed with me).

Sir, I don't hardly do this thing from my keyboard; I know a little about what I say. You go back a few posts and you will see that I can apologize to someone if I say or do something out of line. Can you say the same or has everything you have said in your thousands of posts always been right? Why did you and Tony - among other people - go silent for a long stretch? Is isn't like Chuck (someone I know who is more than a keyboard official) who left for good reason.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No Tom, I'm right here and have been for over 10 years. You're on my Ignore List because of you egotistical BS and campboy attitudes. No idea what officiating from your keyboard means or how many years someone has been in an organization has to do with anything. I guess it's supposed to be some kind of half-a$$ insult. I've only been a member of my local association for 12 years but have been selected by the state association to work numerous state, regional, and sectional championships, so that kinda shoots your half-a$$ insult out the window.

Please guys, stop quoting this prick so I don't have to see his garbage.

So we are calling names now? I always wonder about the ignore list. When some people aren't like you, or say something you don't agree with you just don't want to see it. Interesting.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So we are calling names now? I always wonder about the ignore list. When some people aren't like you, or say something you don't agree with you just don't want to see it. Interesting.

He is famous for that. He thinks he is a moderator on this site too.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Honestly, you have me confused with someone else.

Nope, I seen too many of your back-stabbing, whiny complaining posts over the years to ever confuse you with anybody else, or somebody that I respected as an official either. And this thread is just more proof of that. And as you said in one of your posts, I don't believe in coincidences either. I knew that if anyone showed up to inject some implications into this thread that it might somehow have been the officials' fault, it would be you. You're notorious for doing that. And sure enough, here comes Tomegun questioning both the C and T's actions, implying they both could have done something different or better. What you don't post though is what the guys maybe could have done better or done differently that maybe might have avoided the unfortunate altercation. As usual, absoutely nothing constructive or helpful came from you...just the usual inference that this clusterf**k was somehow the officials' fault.

Honestly, I'd be afraid to turn my back on you if I ever had you as a partner.

Jmo Tom. I know you really don't respect that either. So I doubt either of us is going to be losing any sleep over this one.