What about hair grooming?

[braboa]

Do any of you have prohibitions? During a playoff game that I attended last season one of the officials from a neighboring association wore a ponytail. I'm not kidding.
In my association's bylaws it is "recommended" that we officials not have any facial hair with the exception of a mustache. Me and several other officials wear goatees in the offseason so we were joking about changing the rule. However, I shared the story about the ponytailed official. We can't wear a perfectly manicured goatee but that guy can wear a necklength ponytail.

[zebraman]

Please tell me that the "ponytail guy" didn't get the championship game. :-)

There are no rules or bylaws in our association about hair (facial or otherwise), but it's pretty common knowledge that professionalism includes appearance.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Please tell me that the "ponytail guy" didn't get the championship game. :-)

There are no rules or bylaws in our association about hair (facial or otherwise), but it's pretty common knowledge that professionalism includes appearance.

Z

Appearance standards are going to be differnet depending on where you live. Even what is considered "professional" as different standards when you cross regions of the state, let alone country.

Peace

[Tim Roden]

Show me one college official anywhere in the country that has anything other then eyes, nose, mouth, teeth, and skin on his face. Everything is shaved and none wear glasses. This is not a written rule but an unwritten rule. And all hair is cut over the ears and the neck is showing. If that is true about college officials, why do want to lower your standards when you call high school ball. Especially if you want to get at least a Juco or Division III schedule for college in the near future.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
Show me one college official anywhere in the country that has anything other then eyes, nose, mouth, teeth, and skin on his face. Everything is shaved and none wear glasses. This is not a written rule but an unwritten rule. And all hair is cut over the ears and the neck is showing. If that is true about college officials, why do want to lower your standards when you call high school ball. Especially if you want to get at least a Juco or Division III schedule for college in the near future.

I respectfully disagree with you. I went to the NCAA Rules Meeting and clinic in Chicago on Sunday. They held the Men's and Women's Meetings at the same time. Big Ten, Missouri Valley and many small college conference Officials attend this meetings. There were several officials that were there that had mustaches. Now they did not have goatees, but they did have mustaches. Many of them did. But also let us understand, that many women officials have pony tails and we watched tape that of the Final Four and one of the best women officials that attended this meeting wears a pony tail when she officiates. Pretty lady with dark black hair and her hair is just beyond her shoulder. I am not sure of her name, but she is as big as they get and she wears a pony tail.

I will admit that I did not know the names of everyone there. I could give you 10 names of the big time officials that had some kind of facial hair on both sides on the NCAA D1 Officiating spectrum. Now I will also say this, it seemed to be generational and cultural. They younger, African-American Officials tended to have facial hair then the older and white counterparts. I am not sure what that means, but it might reflect what was once required and what is required now. And the "older" guard if you will still practices what they had to long time ago. And since I do know some NFL and D1 NCAA Football Officials too, that same thing applies to them. It seems to be generational and cultural on who wears facial and who does not.

Peace

Just my take.

[Tim Roden]

Ok, just because Dee Katner has a pony tail doesn't mean I am going to. And if I recall most of the black officials with a mustache have a very small one. Not the great big one that would grow on most white males.

Peace back :-)

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
Ok, just because Dee Katner has a pony tail doesn't mean I am going to. And if I recall most of the black officials with a mustache have a very small one. Not the great big one that would grow on most white males.

Peace back :-)

I was not talking about Dee Katner, but this female official had a similar look as Dee.

Black men usually cannot have a very big mustache usually. Not the same kind of hair growth.

Peace

[zebraman]

Appearance standards are going to be differnet depending on where you live. Even what is considered "professional" as
different standards when you cross regions of the state, let alone country.

To a point, but some things are pretty obvious so let's not get ridiculous. Show me a D-1 male ref with a ponytail. For that matter (apparently with the exception of the post that started this thread), show me a male ref with a ponytail that even gets high school varsity games.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Appearance standards are going to be differnet depending on where you live. Even what is considered "professional" as
different standards when you cross regions of the state, let alone country.

To a point, but some things are pretty obvious so let's not get ridiculous. Show me a D-1 male ref with a ponytail. For that matter (apparently with the exception of the post that started this thread), show me a male ref with a ponytail that even gets high school varsity games.

Z

You do not see very many 250 pound officials at the D1 level, but you see them all the time at the HS level. Almost everyone at the meeting I attended Sunday was dressed in a suit or a very nice outfit. I see varsity officials show up in T-shirts and jeans. Hell I worked with some guys last year that had on sweats for our College game that we did. So as I said, "professional" standards are very different from area to area. There is much more to professionalism than what type of hair style you have on your head or face. You see a lot of things at the D1 level that you almost never see at the lower level college and HS varsity level.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I respectfully disagree with you. I went to the NCAA Rules Meeting and clinic in Chicago on Sunday. They held the Men's and Women's Meetings at the same time. Big Ten, Missouri Valley and many small college conference Officials attend this meetings. There were several officials that were there that had mustaches. Now they did not have goatees, but they did have mustaches. Many of them did.

That doesn't mean that they'll have them when the season starts. As has already been pointed out, some officials grow them in the off season and then shave prior to their first game. There maybe a few who don't shave them but not many.

As Rut said, the Dee Kantner look is pretty common. There are a lot of female officials who wear their hair in a pony tail. I don't believe that's an issue for them. i knoda like it!

Also, Rut can correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure he will, but don't many black men avoid shaving because of the skin irritation. Or is the linesman on our football crew feeding us bunk?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

That doesn't mean that they'll have them when the season starts. As has already been pointed out, some officials grow them in the off season and then shave prior to their first game. There maybe a few who don't shave them but not many.

Well Tony, considering many official including Tom Rucker who retired last year, had a long career with a mustache. If you look at officials this year, you will see many African-American Officials with mustaches. Just an observation on my part. Ed Hightower has no facial hair. Lamar Simpson has no facial hair. But there was a guy who did the Big Ten Men's Tournament in Indianapolis did have facial hair (he also did the Conference USA Tournament Championship Game). But if I have get that chance or come close, I might have to get rid of the the goatee. But that is several years off from even getting that chance (Yeah, right!! )

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Also, Rut can correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure he will, but don't many black men avoid shaving because of the skin irritation. Or is the linesman on our football crew feeding us bunk?

No, many might avoid certain type of razors or certain types of shaving cream. I have personally never had a huge problems with bumps after shaving. But there are many that do. I have a mustache and beard trimmer that I use, I have no problems at all with bumps. But I do know that many do not shave that often because of that problem.

I will make this clear, I saw not a single white guy with facial hair. Not one. And I do not know any D1 Football Officials that have facial hair that are white. Interesting twist on this discussion.

Peace

[zebraman]

You see a lot of things at the D1 level that you almost never see at the lower level college and HS varsity level.

Like I said, some things are pretty obvious. But this thread was started about a male ref with a ponytail. How many of those have you seen at the HS varsity level or higher? Find me one assignor who would call that professional. You can relate to presence and credibility right?.... I can't imagine a male ref with a ponytail who would have credibility with either coach or enough presence to offset the appearance.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
You see a lot of things at the D1 level that you almost never see at the lower level college and HS varsity level.

Like I said, some things are pretty obvious. But this thread was started about a male ref with a ponytail. How many of those have you seen at the HS varsity level or higher? Find me one assignor who would call that professional. You can relate to presence and credibility right?.... I can't imagine a male ref with a ponytail who would have credibility with either coach or enough presence to offset the appearance.

Z

Z,

I do not live all over the country. I do not work in all conferences across the country or know all officials in the country. So you think or what I think is professional is sure different from other parts of the country. I think we have proven that on this board time and time again. I do not live in West Virgina or Tennessee or even Alabama or Florida. I am sure the way we do things up here are not completely the same in other parts of the country. I think I have already demonstrated that getting games, moving up or whether you do boy's and girl's basketball all are not the same as many places around this great country. Hell I saw an official last year with Black Jeans on (had a patch in the back) doing a varsity Tournament. I thought that was entirely unprofessional and looked very bad, but he was there. I am sure that was not the first or last time this official had that kind of attire on, but he was working that X-Mas Tournament.

Peace

[zebraman]

What does presense have to do with this conversation?

Presence is the "image" that you project while officiating. If your hair is in a ponytail or you have black jeans on, your presence is already hurt.

I do not live all over the country. I do not work in all conferences across the country or know all officials in the country.

You mean you don't live out of a van down by the river? :-) Me neither, but I would imagine you've seen enough high school and college ball on TV to see that "the look" is pretty universal. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

So you think or what I think is professional is sure different from other parts of the country.

To a point. At some point, it becomes absurd.

Hell I saw an official last year with Black Jeans on (had a patch in the back) doing a varsity Tournament. I thought that was entirely unprofessional and looked very bad, but he was there.

You were right. It was not only unprofessional, but it is not even a proper uniform. Remember that a sample size of one proves nothing.

I am sure that was not the first or last time this official had that kind of attire on, but he was working that X-Mas Tournament.

Actually, I think rather than assuming that he had worn that before, I might assume that he had a "pants problem" and forgot his backup pair.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman


Presence is the "image" that you project while officiating. If your hair is in a ponytail or you have black jeans on, your presence is already hurt.

Interesting. When I suggested this before, I was told how important all the other things were much more important than "Presence." Actually the argument that I gave has been mocked as if what I said came from another planet. Now you want to hold on to an issue that I said from the very beginning and claim its importants. I find that interesting.

Originally posted by zebraman


I am sure that was not the first or last time this official had that kind of attire on, but he was working that X-Mas Tournament.

Actually, I think rather than assuming that he had worn that before, I might assume that he had a "pants problem" and forgot his backup pair.

Z

Well considering the way he officiated the game I witnessed, it seemed like his "attention to detail" was lacking big time. This was my point before about wanting a specific partner. This guy might have known every rule and mechanic back and forth, but you could not tell by the way he officiated or the way he hustled or the way his uniform looked. So Z you are really proving my point in this discussion that we have had for months (I am not trying to go there again, just making an observation). So the guy that has the ponytail and the guy that wears jeans, might know the rules, past many tests or be competent in many ways in officiating, but does not prove it by the way they look. Or better yet, gives a negative impression of how they take officiating. And that impression can affect the way coaches, players and even fans view us and the job we do.

Now my only point about the ponytail is that I am sure there is someone over the country that has worn a ponytail for a varsity and maybe even a small college game. I would have never thought anyone would wear a pair of black jeans, but they did. And even when we talk about facial hair, things have been changing across the country in other professional arenas with what people wear their hair and what is on their face. It is only concievable that someone might do something that was seen as unprofessional at one time. I would love to say I know what everyone does around the country and world, but the reality is that I do not. I am surprised that doing a HS game requires a "floor test" or requires some evaluation just to do a HS game. That does not apply where I live, but it does somewhere. And I guess that is the point.

Peace