What about hair grooming? - Page 2

zebraman · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 15, 2002, 01:09pm

Presense?

Note: That was a quote of your original spelling by the way. :-)

Interesting. When I suggested this before, I was told how important all the other things were much more important than
"Presence."

Based on my experiences, I still very much believe that rules and mechanics are more important in my partner than presence and I also believe that a beginning ref needs to concentrate on rules and mechanics before working on more advanced stuff.

Well considering the way he officiated the game I witnessed, it seemed like his "attention to detail" was lacking big time.

Well then he is non-professional in many ways and the only question is why an assignor gave him the game in the first place.

So Z you are really proving my point in this discussion that we have had for months (I am not trying to go there again, just making an observation). So the guy that has the ponytail and the guy that wears jeans, might know the rules, past many tests or be competent in many ways in officiating, but does not prove it by the way they look. Or better yet, gives a negative impression of how they take officiating. And that impression can affect the way coaches, players and even fans view us and the job we do.

First of all, you are going there again. If you are going to use one guy who wears jeans in his game to prove your point, have at it. I'll use the rest of the guys who dress correctly and have great rule knowledge as my "test subjects."

Now my only point about the ponytail is that I am sure there is someone over the country that has worn a ponytail for a varsity and maybe even a small college game.

Perhaps somewhere someone refs a game wearing nothing but a thong and a tatoo of Ed Rush on their left butt cheek. It's still unprofessional by the standards of any assignor you or I know right?

Z

AK ref SE · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 15, 2002, 01:14pm

Where you live and culture have a lot to do with "Professional looking" or what is consider a professional look. Where I live the culture dictates a longer hairstyle for some. That is there belief. I have seen many officials with ponytails. Do they aspire to do D1, I do not know.

Just my 2 cents!

AK ref SE

braboa · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 15, 2002, 01:31pm

In case anyone was curious. This official was a black guy and I don't remember anything else "negative" about him, so he otherwise called a good game I guess. He also had a mustache. Anyway, I posted about that experience just because I consider any veteran official ahead of me in line to work at 1)the state playoff level, 2)the college level, and maybe 3)the pro level. I got my feet wet with some varsity level games last year (this is my third season) and I really try to be conscious about exuding a professional appearance. I typically work in a shirt, tie and slacks, so that's what I usually show up to the gym wearing. I think that not only helps me on the court with the coaches, players and fans, but I would like to think people within my association take notice. But this ponytail guy totally threw me for a loop. I wondered if my approach was even worthwhile. But I'll just chalk that experience up as an aberration.

P.S. Any SWAC (Southern Univ-BR), SEC (LSU), Southland (Louisiana-Monroe & Southeastern La.), or Sunbelt (Louisiana-Lafayette) officials out there, I'd love to come watch you work if you have a game within driving distance of Baton Rouge. I look forward to sharing with all of you.

JRutledge · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 15, 2002, 01:49pm

I think if you look way back when, this discussion on my part had to do with taking tests and proving rules knowledge through test taking. And getting a 95 as compared to a 85 does not prove that someone is better at the rules because they got a certain score on a silly test. Not everyone are good test takers and those tests are most of the time do not tell the entire story. They worry more about semantic statements and confusing wording to rather than testing the application of the rules we apply. Rules knowledge is extremely important, but not the only way or even the main way we are judged as officials. Considering that you Z are questioning the professionalism of an official with a ponytail and whether he should be hired at the upper level based on that fact and that fact alone. It is the same thing we are judged on and what keeps us from having a smooth game. Or at least we can be judged by our appearance in ways that it affects the way our job was performed by others. In this case the way an official wears his hair can affect what games an official does despite how knowlegable that official might be in the rules department. So rules might be an officials best asset, but the might not ever prove it because of the way they look.

Peace

zebraman · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 15, 2002, 04:24pm

Rut,

I can't debate what I don't understand. When you start sentences with "and," "so," and "or," your point gets lost in the delivery.

Next time I see a male ref on TV with a ponytail or wearing jeans, I'll let you know. :-)

Z

rainmaker · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 16, 2002, 02:36pm

I just want to point out that although some of you may have problems with Rut's English, and his propensity for discussion, and even though he says he doesn't care for girls' basketball, he was the first one to make the point explicit that this ref that braboa was wondering about was male. (Wow!! Was that a run-on sentence, or what!?) Braboa does use the male pronoun throughout his post, but that could just have been bad typing. I appreciate Jeff making explicit the male/female differences in acceptable hairstyle, and the race differences in facial hair. I don't think it hurts anything to keep being explicit about the fact that men and women are different, and blacks and whites are different and there may be different standards.

As a female, I have thought seriously about growing out my hair because so many female refs DO wear bangs and ponytails. Except for Melissa Barlow, and a couple of black women, virtually all the pro women have long hair. But I don't like my hair long, and it's much harder to care for. Hmmmm... interesting dilemma, one that men don't have to worry about!

JRutledge · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 16, 2002, 04:43pm

In my own state we have differences of professionalism and professional standards. I am sure the standards are different in other states. That is the point, not whether anyone likes girl's basketball or wears a ponytail. My point was only to illustrate that standards are different from area and level. What officials do at the college and D1 level have nothing to do with what officials do at the HS level. At least it does not around where I live.

Peace

ChuckElias · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 16, 2002, 05:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
I am sure the standards are different in other states. That is the point

That's true, Jeff, and I don't think anybody will argue with you. I think the point some others were making is that the standards aren't really all that different. Yes, some areas tolerate a mustache or goatee; but no area that I know of would tolerate a pony-tail (on a guy) or a full beard (at least on the college level). And the further up the ladder you go, the less difference there is in the standards. Would you agree with that?

Chuck

JRutledge · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 16, 2002, 05:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

That's true, Jeff, and I don't think anybody will argue with you. I think the point some others were making is that the standards aren't really all that different. Yes, some areas tolerate a mustache or goatee; but no area that I know of would tolerate a pony-tail (on a guy) or a full beard (at least on the college level). And the further up the ladder you go, the less difference there is in the standards. Would you agree with that?

Chuck

Chuck, I have seen many officials with full beards in my state. I think it all depends on who is assigning the games. Not everyone gets games by one person or one group. But just because we do not see officials wearing goatees and beards does not mean that there is a standard that everyone has to adhere to.

Guys I have a goatee and would get rid of it if someone told me to and told me I would not be hired because of that fact. But I have not at all been told that or been suggested that is the best thing to do. Chuck, I am telling you I do not know something and I do not want to speculate when this story was about a HS ref. College is another level all together. They are paid differently. The expectations are different and usually much more money is at stake with the conferences and coaches involved. Everyone does not want to be a college official. I know it might suprise some of you, but that is the case.

Peace

ChuckElias · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 16, 2002, 08:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
And the further up the ladder you go, the less difference there is in the standards. Would you agree with that?

But just because we do not see officials wearing goatees and beards does not mean that there is a standard that everyone has to adhere to.

Absolutely. Again, I'll agree completely. I never intended to say that there was one standard that everyone has to adhere to. Obviously, that's not the case. I think everyone has already admitted that.

Quote:

Everyone does not want to be a college official. I know it might suprise some of you, but that is the case.

It doesn't surprise me at all. But it's irrelevant to the question I asked. I was just curious if you would agree that the standard for a person's appearance becomes much more "standard" (for lack of a better word) or less varied as an official moves up the ladder? You see full beards at the HS level. Ok, I buy that. But when have you ever seen a full beard on TV? My only point was that I think an official's appearance is more controlled as he/she reaches higher levels. Do you think that's a fair statement?

Chuck

Camron Rust · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 17, 2002, 01:26pm

All I got to say is "What hair?"

Being naturally bald on top, I finish the job and shave my head and my face. The longest and only visible hair on my head are my eyebrows and eyelashes.

Tim Roden · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 17, 2002, 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
All I got to say is "What hair?"

Being naturally bald on top, I finish the job and shave my head and my face. The longest and only visible hair on my head are my eyebrows and eyelashes.

All I got to say on that is no hair is no problem. Bald is natural for a lot of people so having no hair has never been a stigma in moving up. Now that Michael Jordan is bald, shaving your head has become fashionable. This is especially true with blacks but not limited to such.

Barry C. Morris · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 17, 2002, 02:28pm

Camron,

Sounds like you and I would be book ends. I do the same thing. I've told a coach before, upon his questioning of one of my calls, that the hair got in my eyes. That usually gets a laugh out of them and shuts them up until the next call.

The problem I have with a shaved head is it looks like I'm sweating profusely whenever I'm on the floor since there's no hair to absorb the moisture. I don't really sweat that much but I hate the appearance. I'm afraid it makes me look out of shape. Does anyone else struggle with this? If so, what do you do to counteract?

AK ref SE · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 17, 2002, 02:37pm

Barry- I like your comment to the coach about the hair in your eyes.

I am in the military and have some hair(very short) I sweat just saying the word. To me, if you are hustling up and down the court....sweating is showing that you are working hard!
Sweating is our bodies way of controlling our inside body temperature. So to control it may make matters worse.

If someone is carrying extra weight(i am not saying you do). The perception that some people make about when people sweat is that they are out of shape. They do not think that we are running up and down the court with kids half or more our age(in my case) and the gym is hot.

AK ref SE

stripes · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 17, 2002, 05:16pm

I have been "clean" on my head for 7 years now. It has actually hurt me in some cases. I have had supervisors talk about the fact that they didn't like my "hairstyle" (or lack thereof). One college supervisor in particular hasn't hired me and I know that my hair choice is low on thier list of preference--is that the only reason--who knows?

As for the sweat, most people would be surprised at how much your hair will hold. I am in good shape and not heavy (6'2" 190 lbs) and the sweat rolls off my head during a game. It is a by-product of running. I don't think it shows one to be out of shape.