Swinging Elbows
 

Watching the North Carolina and Vandy Game. Vandy Guard has the ball near division line and is holding the ball and swings his elbow and it hits the NC defender in nose. It was just a graze.

Ruling: Intentional Foul as a minimum call and could have been flagrant if more than a graze.

Question: Same Ruling in High School games??

Impossible to say without seeing the play. Anything from a no call to a flagrant.

In NCAA beginning this year, any moving elbow which contacts an opponent above the shoulders is a minimum of an intentional foul. The intentional is for contact that result from "total body movement" (a normal pivot, for example). If contact anywhere on the opponent results from excessive swinging of the elbows, then it is a flagrant foul.

So there's no chance of incidental? Even if the defender sticks his nose in where it doesn't belong?

Incidental is a choice. But a common foul is not.

The "incidental" elbows I saw last year resulted in ejections, if incidental means, "I swung my elbow, knocked you on your *** even though I didn't know you were there.

No it is not the same at the high school level. The NCAA wants certain kinds of fouls called if contact is with the head. HS has not made these provisions about calling an intentional foul with all contact of that nature.

Peace

...yet. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a similar edict in a year or two. ;)

Is this the same game as discussed here:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...your-call.html

In any event, the NCAA and FED rules are different.

My understanding is that if the elbow is moving, then incidental is not an option. Because of this, we have been pre-gaming that if a defender "sticks his nose in where it doesn't belong", we grab any initial contact as a common foul on the defender. Get those little guys out of there, and there's less chance for that big guy to pivot and get hit with the intentional.

my take
 

NCAA redefined elbows above the shoulders. NFHS did not. THe play in the UNC-Vandy game could have just been a player control foul in High School.

I wouldn't either.

Peace

+1

This has been standard in each pregrame I've been involved with this year.

What stipulates where the defenders' nose belongs or doesn't belong?

For NFHS, Rule 4-23-1.

It belongs on his face. If he sticks his face outside of his vertical plance and within the opponent's vertical space, I'd say his face doesn't belong there.

Yep ... the nose that gets there first, belongs ;)

I like this word. May I use it?

Oh, and can you describe a horizontal plance?:D

As BktBallRef alludes to, if B1 leans over A1, who pivots elbows out in the process of straightening up or even squaring up, it's likely going to be a no-call unless A1's elbow is somehow damaged.

Perhaps true, but based on the OP, I was going on the presumption that we have swinging elbows VS elbows moving via normal pivoting ...

My President says if the elbows do not move faster than the torso, it is not a violation or foul.

Since this thread started with reference to the NCAA rules, I just want to remind everyone that the statement above is FALSE in NCAA games.

So under what circumstance is a no-call acceptable when elbows make contact with face?

Your President probably said that because the rules told him to say that. Just saying...:D

NFHS rule 4-24-8(a) and NCAA rule 4-36-7(a). Note though that both of those rules also go on to say that you can still call a foul or violation if you deem that the aggression(speed and vigor) of the elbow swing could cause injury if contact was made.

He not only spelled it wrong, everybody knows most plants grow vertically.

"You plant the little seeds in the rich brown soil and watch them shoot up toward the sun and the sky." **





**Oliver Wendell Douglas

Only when the elbow is NOT moving.

Wouldn't that be the face contacting the elbow, not vice versa?

It's never a foul? :confused:

If A1 has the ball face level with his elbows out and pivots his entire body and his elbow contacts B1, who has established and maintained a legal guarding position, it's not a foul? Nevvver? (in my Bill Maher squeaky voice).

Yes, that's correct. That's the only time elbow contact above the shoulders is incidental. I'm sorry if I made it more confusing than it has to be.

The part in red is why you're :confused: . AHSAA_Ref never mentioned contact. If a player's elbows are not moving faster than the torso, it's not excessive (by definition). Therefore, no violation or foul.

And even if there is contact, NFHS does not mandate that it must be a foul. At the high school level, officials are still allowed to exercise judgment about whether it was incidental or not.

Yo, BadNews...

Miss the red-highlighted part?

I was focused on the "never a foul" statement since AASHA didn't quote which post he was responding to.

Out Of Joint ...
 

Remember: You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.

Not true. You can if you really want to and your friend has no complaints about your doing so.

Just saying.....

Not many of us have friends like that.

Or want friends like that.