Revisiting 1972 Olympics final

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by iliasbay

I guess that my investigation is too detailed to become interesting to the public.

Well, that and the fact that your topic is 38 years old, has been done to death, and just isn't really that interesting to anyone anymore. And you can also take into effect that you posted it on a web site devoted to officiating and officials. The officials in that game didn't make the final decision. They simply followed the directives of the FIBA rep.

[iliasbay]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you can also take into effect that you posted it on a web site devoted to officiating and officials. The officials in that game didn't make the final decision. They simply followed the directives of the FIBA rep.

That's exactly why I posted it here. I had a hope that some of officials would go through the articles and, possibly, find weak spots in my argumentation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by iliasbay

That's exactly why I posted it here. I had a hope that some of officials would go through the articles and, possibly, find weak spots in my argumentation.

The weak spot in your argument is that the official followed the rules of the game that were in effect.

[Judtech]

I'll jump in the fray. Always good to look at things from history, lest we forget.
I think that there is no way to UNDERSTATE the involvement of the FIBA Director Mr Jones. This entire situation could have been resolved by a more proactive approach to this game:
1. Have an experienced timer. This is inexcusable and not the fault of the officials.
2. Have someone/s at the table who speak the language of the referees and the teams playing, this was not the case during the game. Neither official spoke English and if memory serves could not understand each others language. So now you have 2 officials on a game who can not communicate with each other let alone one of the competitors.
3. After the first error by the clock operator, make sure that everything is squared away before the ballis put into play the second time. He already inserted himself into the game, he might as well make sure things were perfect.

General thoughts on some of your conclusions:
1. You cant take a 12 second snippet of Jones and Korkia and make a statement about what happened. What happened prior to this event? Was Korkia playing "dirty" prior to that and Jones finally had enough? Was Jones just being a thug? Can't tell by this 12 seconds, which IMO takes away some credibility for this argument
2. A lot of your arguments seem to be "2 Wrongs make a right". 2 wrongs are 2 wrongs.
3. I think you under estimate the effect that moving McMillen off the line made. Edeshko was able to make a quasi running throw the length of the court. Had McMillen been allowed to stay where he was Edeshko would have had to drop further back to throw the ball over McMillen. Ask Rick Pitino about the advantages of guarding the player throwing the ball in bounds.
4. Whether Edshko's foot was on the line is still open for debate. Again, had McMillen been allowed to be in front of him this wouldn't be an issue
5. This is what can happen when you try to make things "fair" whether the rules support them or not.

Always a good topic for discussion. People can disagree but the fact remains that the USSR has the gold and we don't from that one. Also like ANY game that comes down to the wire, we have a tendendcy to forget about what happened the ENTIRE game, which IMO makes the last 3 seconds in THIS game more into perspective.

[iliasbay]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I think that there is no way to UNDERSTATE the involvement of the FIBA Director Mr Jones. This entire situation could have been resolved by a more proactive approach to this game:
1. Have an experienced timer. This is inexcusable and not the fault of the officials.
2. Have someone/s at the table who speak the language of the referees and the teams playing, this was not the case during the game. Neither official spoke English and if memory serves could not understand each others language. So now you have 2 officials on a game who can not communicate with each other let alone one of the competitors.
3. After the first error by the clock operator, make sure that everything is squared away before the ballis put into play the second time. He already inserted himself into the game, he might as well make sure things were perfect.

Cannot disagree on any of these.

Originally Posted by Judtech

1. You cant take a 12 second snippet of Jones and Korkia and make a statement about what happened. What happened prior to this event? Was Korkia playing "dirty" prior to that and Jones finally had enough? Was Jones just being a thug? Can't tell by this 12 seconds, which IMO takes away some credibility for this argument

That's a good point. Maybe I should review the game from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Judtech

2. A lot of your arguments seem to be "2 Wrongs make a right". 2 wrongs are 2 wrongs.

Cannot argue on that. Could you be more specific?

Originally Posted by Judtech

3. I think you under estimate the effect that moving McMillen off the line made. Edeshko was able to make a quasi running throw the length of the court. Had McMillen been allowed to stay where he was Edeshko would have had to drop further back to throw the ball over McMillen.

Well, our disagreement is only on the level of significance of the McMillen's removal from his position. Chances to score were minimal in either of situations.

Originally Posted by Judtech

4. Whether Edshko's foot was on the line is still open for debate. Again, had McMillen been allowed to be in front of him this wouldn't be an issue

In HBO's "3 seconds from Gold" they showed that there was a small gap between Edeshko's foot and the base line.

Originally Posted by Judtech

5. This is what can happen when you try to make things "fair" whether the rules support them or not.

Completely agree.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by iliasbay

That's exactly why I posted it here. I had a hope that some of officials would go through the articles and, possibly, find weak spots in my argumentation.

The Referee magazine article will disprove your thoeries.

[iliasbay]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The Referee magazine article will disprove your thoeries.

The magazine is on it's way, I'm waiting...

[TimTaylor]

Hindsight is always 20/20, although sometimes myopically so. What's done is done, and all the rehashing in the world isn't going to change it.

I was actually in Munich for these games - not for basketball though, I was a member of the support staff for a team in another sport. In all honesty, there were other things that occurred that pretty much made things like what's being discussed here pretty insignificant, at least to those who were there - and that's all I have to say on the matter.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

In all honesty, there were other things that occurred that pretty much made things like what's being discussed here pretty insignificant, at least to those who were there - and that's all I have to say on the matter.

Amen, Tim. Absolutely no comparison. Anybody who watched that unfold on TV will never, ever forget the scenes portrayed. Nobody was really thinking of any sport, let alone basketball which wasn't even a global favorite at that time.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The officials in that game didn't make the final decision. They simply followed the directives of the FIBA rep.

Here's a question. Do we take direction from our superiors like this during a game? If I'm calling a state championship game and the state supervisor of officials takes exception to the way I did something, he doesn't have the authority under NFHS rules to make any adjustment then, does he? No matter how wrong I may be, it's still my game, my call, isn't it? Is this not the case in FIBA in general, or the olympics in particular?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Here's a question. Do we take direction from our superiors like this during a game? If I'm calling a state championship game and the state supervisor of officials takes exception to the way I did something, he doesn't have the authority under NFHS rules to make any adjustment then, does he? No matter how wrong I may be, it's still my game, my call, isn't it? Is this not the case in FIBA in general, or the olympics in particular?

I think that, at that time, it was within the authority of the FIBA rep to do exactly what was done.

[iliasbay]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think that, at that time, it was within the authority of the FIBA rep to do exactly what was done.

Not according to the rules. Article 17.Duties and Powers of referee, last paragraph:

The referee shall have power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered in the rules.

And I could not find anything in the rules about FIBA representative's power.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by iliasbay

And I could not find anything in the rules about FIBA representative's power.

Do you have a copy of the 1972 FIBA rules, regulations and constitution? If you don't, your research is meaningless.

[iliasbay]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Do you have a copy of the 1972 FIBA rules, regulations and constitution?

Yes, I do. You can find rules of 1972 in my site.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by iliasbay

Yes, I do. You can find rules of 1972 in my site.

You have the game rules but not the organizational bylaws, constitution, rules, etc.