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-   -   Bench Technical or not (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/59609-bench-technical-not.html)

Raymond Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 699290)
How did the observer instruct you to handle it, News? Come-To-Jesus talk with the HC, warning, or "T"?
After the first incident we should have warned the HC which would have precluded any further visits.

And he made it clear it was OUR responsibility to be aware of what the bench personnel are doing. His statement was bascially "How do all 3 officials not not know WTF is happening on the sidelines?"

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 699293)
After the first incident we should have warned the HC which would have precluded any further visits.

And he made it clear it was OUR responsibility to be aware of what the bench personnel are doing. His statement was bascially "How do all 3 officials not not know WTF is happening on the sidelines?"
Fwiw, I think your observer was wise beyond his years. :)

Nip it in the bud but put the onus on the person who's supposed to control the bench. If that doesn't work, oh well, he's been warned. As BJ said, manage the situation.

Camron Rust Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 699245)
Where in the rule book or case book does it say that the AC can approach the table?
That is what I get for answering in my sleep at 1:31am.

If it is a "coach", they can't.....they're not restricted "to the bench" during those times, but they don't get access to the table.. If it is a manager/statistician, they can. But, who is a manager/statistician? I know several teams where an adult i(asst. coach) s the keeping stats...are they a coach or statistician?

Ref_in_Alberta Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:31am
I know... I know...

Doesn't help with the NF rule however in the FIBA game, by rule, the AC is premmitted to go to the score table to obtain statistical information (only) during a dead ball and the game clock is stopped.

The OP had asked "...what can the official scorer &/or timer do (if anything) to cease this activity?"

The answer is... not much. You can be professional and ask that the AC stay in their team bench area and inform the officiating crew that there is an issue and let the crew deal with it.

Adam Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 699254)
In one of the situations I'm talking about, the AC is just basically a bench warmer except during timeouts as the team uses either lower level players as statisticians or other willing individuals.

For example: at my alma mater all the coaches on game day wear polos with the school name on them whereas the manager(s) are normally in regular street clothes with nothing identifying the school. The AC in question is the JV Coach & has one of those "higher than thou" attitudes were he thinks he's better than everyone else & is above the rules.

Yes I do realize everyone may have a varying view to the wording of both the rule & the case. As I am reading it, like stated above, not one of the coaches is supposed to be approaching the table at all unless they stay inside their coaching box (the HC only) and discuss game strategy with a player coming in to sub. If they want to know information, such as fouls, they can ask the scorer during dead ball periods from the coaches box.

Both my wife & I are thinking of doing it one step better & mentioning it to the HC since we're on good relations with him.

It's my understanding that during a Varsity Contest, the only coach that should be doing any communications/interactions with the game officials is the HC.
1. You're right, the coaches are not supposed to approach the table.
2. Unless it's a high profile AC or the HC, if I see someone approach the table during a TO or intermission, I'm assuming it's a statistician or manager (neither term is defined in the rule book as far as I remember).
3. If they're truly interfering with the table operations, it needs to be addressed: by talking to one of the officials on the floor.
4. If he's merely asking for fouls, let it go.
5. If he's making regular trips, I'd question how good a statistician he is; he should be keeping track of that himself and maybe need to verify a couple times per game.

I have to ask, what is he doing when he gets there? How is he interfering?

SCalScoreKeeper Tue Nov 02, 2010 01:41pm
When not doing the scorebook for both varsity teams I do the stats for our JV Girls team. I track the fouls on my stat sheet.Plus all of the scorers (mostly adults for Varsity and students for JV) here have the knowledge beforehand to tell a coach when a kid has 2,3,4,and 5 fouls (disqualification) making such a practice unecessary.

chseagle Tue Nov 02, 2010 04:00pm
From what I've noticed during the Varsity games is that when the AC comes over to the table, he's doing it by himself, without the HC asking him to, then relaying what he's seen to the HC. Majority of the time he does it is during live ball situations.

Like I stated in an earlier post, the way the coaching/statistician is setup, the ACs are extra bench personnel there as bench warmers (except during timeouts), as advisers to the HC. The statisticians are students/lower level players that sit behind the team bench with a computer/clipboard.

Both my wife & I are going to contact the HC & mention to him what we have learned & that it is a hinderance to the table that the AC is coming over looking at information that the statisticians are keeping track of.

The HC, throughout the game, when there is a lull in the action asks the Scorer about the player fouls by staying within the coaching box, so really there is no need for the AC to leave to the bench area to obtain information that the HC has asked for.

Generally the scorer is in constant communication with the HC concerning the fouls, that there are times the HC does not even need to ask.

Adam Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 699385)
From what I've noticed during the Varsity games is that when the AC comes over to the table, he's doing it by himself, without the HC asking him to, then relaying what he's seen to the HC. Majority of the time he does it is during live ball situations.
That's a problem if he's doing it while the ball is in play. One warning, that's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 699385)
Like I stated in an earlier post, the way the coaching/statistician is setup, the ACs are extra bench personnel there as bench warmers (except during timeouts), as advisers to the HC. The statisticians are students/lower level players that sit behind the team bench with a computer/clipboard.
I know, my point is that as an official, I neither know nor care to know how each school structures their team. I've seen coaches "look" younger than some of the players, so I wouldn't think twice about whether a person looks like a coach or a student or a manager or a statastician.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 699385)
The HC, throughout the game, when there is a lull in the action asks the Scorer about the player fouls by staying within the coaching box, so really there is no need for the AC to leave to the bench area to obtain information that the HC has asked for.

Generally the scorer is in constant communication with the HC concerning the fouls, that there are times the HC does not even need to ask.
This is how I normally see it done. I expect your head coach will thank you and proceed to do things as he always has.

I will add this; there's nothing in the rules that prevents an AC from being the statistician/manager.

BillyMac Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:08pm
Red Chief, The Sequel ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 699252)
I agree. Valid question.
Polite. Well mannered. Wait a minute? What have you done with the real Jurassic Referee and how much ransom do we have to pay for you to keep him?

chseagle Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 699396)
I will add this; there's nothing in the rules that prevents an AC from being the statistician/manager.
I know there's nothing in the rules that prevents an AC from being a statistician or manager.

However, if there are students or others acting in the capacity of statistician &/or manager, besides a member of the coaching staff, does that not mean that the AC is disqualified to approach the table?

I know when I was the Boys' Manager, I was given all the duties of the manager during games & the ACs were just there to assist the HC with calling plays. However when I was manager, never was I asked to approach the table as the HC was in constant communication with the table or if his attention was elsewhere one of the ACs would relay the information to him from the table via audio communication from the table.

Of course each school/team does things a bit differently, as well as the views of each floor official is different, as I learned last night.

Adam Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 699404)
I know there's nothing in the rules that prevents an AC from being a statistician or manager.

However, if there are students or others acting in the capacity of statistician &/or manager, besides a member of the coaching staff, does that not mean that the AC is disqualified to approach the table?
Nowhere in the rules is the statistician or manager defined; this means, in my game, anyone inquiring about stats is a statistician (except the HC). Also, nowhere in the rules does it say only one person can hold the position.

Again, asking about stats is one thing. Hovering over the table is another.

Doing it during a timeout or intermission is one thing; doing it during live play is another.

Adam Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:31pm
Further thoughts. Case plays generally, unless otherwise noted, correspond with the rule number. Case 10.5.1C, for example, should correspond with rule 10-5, which is about the Head Coach. I'm gonna cogitate on that a bit this evening.

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 699406)
I'm gonna cogitate on that a bit this evening.
Be sure to quit before you go blind.

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 699385)
Both my wife & I are going to contact the HC & mention to him what we have learned & that it is a hinderance to the table that the AC is coming over looking at information that the statisticians are keeping track of.
Go for it. Tell him you're both just not gonna stand for it any longer.

Please be sure to report back on how he took the news.

Btw, does the little woman also have her own taser? If not, Christmas is coming. Just saying......

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 02, 2010 06:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 699397)
Polite. Well mannered. Wait a minute? What have you done with the real Jurassic Referee and how much ransom do we have to pay for you to keep him?
Billy, I told you before that I are now the kinder, gentler JR.

Want the IAABO exam? I've got that and the answers.


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