Bench Technical or not
 

Rule 10-4-4 states:
"Stand at the team bench while the clock is running or is stopped, & must remain seated, except:
a. The head coach as in 10-5-1.
b. When a team member is reporting to the scorer's table.
c. During a charged time-out, as in 5-12-5, or the intermission between quarters and extra periods.
d. To spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a team member or to acknowledge a replaced player(s), but must immediately return to his/her seat.
PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged indirectly to the head coach. (Art. 1g) Flagrant foul, the offender is disqualified. If the offender is bench personnel, each foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach."

As this rule is stated, should there be a technical foul assessed for the assistant coach to leave the bench, & go behind the scorers' table to look at the scorebook to check on player fouls or quarters played during the middle of the game, during time-outs, or between quarters/halves??

As I am reading & understanding the rule, the assistant coach is only supposed to be behind the scorers' table as the team is coming out for warm-ups or to start the 2nd half.

Am I interpreting this right?

If I am reading/interpreting the rule right, what can the official scorer &/or timer do (if anything) to cease this activity?

Save your allowance and get that taser.

Did you miss the memo??; apply your taser to the offending individual, as per rule 2-11&12, specially amended for WIAA to accomodate officiating wannabes.
In the real world, gay kocken offen yom...

Almost. The AC, is not restricted to the bench during intermissions/timeouts.

As for what you can do...obscure whatever they are trying to look at and ignore them. :D:eek:

You "might" wish to inform the officials that he AC is interfering with your ability to do your job by being at the table and distracting you during play. More than likely (and probably the recommended approach for the first occurrence), the officials will simply tell the AC to stay in his seat and not go to the table.

Page 89 of the 2009-2010 Case Book:

"10.5.1 SITUATION C: The coach of Team A leaves the bench area and goes to the table to seek information other than a correctable error: (a) during a time-out; or (b) during the intermission between the first and second quarters. RULING: A technical foul is charged directly to the coach in both (a) and (b). If this information is required, it must be secured by a manager or statistician, etc., when the clock is stopped and the ball is dead. A coach is not permitted at the table for this purpose. To allow exceptions would open the door for exploitation and would result in situations which could not be enforced consistently."

Above is a reason why I am asking, especially with the wording saying a manager or statistician are the only ones that can approach the table. Since it also states at the end "A coach is not permitted at the table for this purpose.", would that also include assistant coaches as they are also coaches & not managers or statisticians?

Another reason why I am asking is cause of seeing it happen before & interfering with the table crew's duties.

Where in the rule book or case book does it say that the AC can approach the table?

Nice!:p

Sorry but I will not, as you say, "get lost", I am asking a valid question and have mentioned the rule pertaining to what I am asking as well as a case book scenario.

As I stated in another thread, because a taser is considered a weapon, I cannot carry one on school grounds

Who's to say the AC isn't the statistician? Frankly, most times I couldn't tell the difference between the manager and an AC, as I see only three sorts of people on the bench.

1. HC
2. Players
3. Everyone else

If he's actually bothering you, it's different. Address it with the officials during a timeout or intermission; but if he's just checking with his scorer for statistical information, I'd let it go.

I agree. Valid question.

In one of the situations I'm talking about, the AC is just basically a bench warmer except during timeouts as the team uses either lower level players as statisticians or other willing individuals.

For example: at my alma mater all the coaches on game day wear polos with the school name on them whereas the manager(s) are normally in regular street clothes with nothing identifying the school. The AC in question is the JV Coach & has one of those "higher than thou" attitudes were he thinks he's better than everyone else & is above the rules.

Yes I do realize everyone may have a varying view to the wording of both the rule & the case. As I am reading it, like stated above, not one of the coaches is supposed to be approaching the table at all unless they stay inside their coaching box (the HC only) and discuss game strategy with a player coming in to sub. If they want to know information, such as fouls, they can ask the scorer during dead ball periods from the coaches box.

Both my wife & I are thinking of doing it one step better & mentioning it to the HC since we're on good relations with him.

It's my understanding that during a Varsity Contest, the only coach that should be doing any communications/interactions with the game officials is the HC.

Yeah, that's in the book -- as a tool to cool down situations that are getting confrontational. Around here if you tried to enforce that routinely you'd be considered a total pr!ck and lose games.

It's one of those "spirit of the rules" vs. "letter of the rules" issues. IMO, it's there so that IF there's a problem, it can be dealt with. If there's no problem, then ignore it.

Other phrases that apply:
1) Don't be a plumber
2) Officiate with the book, not by the book
3) Officiate the game; manage situations

I agree. In a college camp a couple summers ago (AAU tourney) my entire crew got BLASTED by the observer b/c we didn't handle an AC who was making regular trips to the table.

It was actually the most pissed off an observer has ever been in regards to a game I worked.

How did the observer instruct you to handle it, News? Come-To-Jesus talk with the HC, warning, or "T"?

After the first incident we should have warned the HC which would have precluded any further visits.

And he made it clear it was OUR responsibility to be aware of what the bench personnel are doing. His statement was bascially "How do all 3 officials not not know WTF is happening on the sidelines?"

Fwiw, I think your observer was wise beyond his years. :)

Nip it in the bud but put the onus on the person who's supposed to control the bench. If that doesn't work, oh well, he's been warned. As BJ said, manage the situation.

That is what I get for answering in my sleep at 1:31am.

If it is a "coach", they can't.....they're not restricted "to the bench" during those times, but they don't get access to the table.. If it is a manager/statistician, they can. But, who is a manager/statistician? I know several teams where an adult i(asst. coach) s the keeping stats...are they a coach or statistician?

I know... I know...

Doesn't help with the NF rule however in the FIBA game, by rule, the AC is premmitted to go to the score table to obtain statistical information (only) during a dead ball and the game clock is stopped.

The OP had asked "...what can the official scorer &/or timer do (if anything) to cease this activity?"

The answer is... not much. You can be professional and ask that the AC stay in their team bench area and inform the officiating crew that there is an issue and let the crew deal with it.

1. You're right, the coaches are not supposed to approach the table.
2. Unless it's a high profile AC or the HC, if I see someone approach the table during a TO or intermission, I'm assuming it's a statistician or manager (neither term is defined in the rule book as far as I remember).
3. If they're truly interfering with the table operations, it needs to be addressed: by talking to one of the officials on the floor.
4. If he's merely asking for fouls, let it go.
5. If he's making regular trips, I'd question how good a statistician he is; he should be keeping track of that himself and maybe need to verify a couple times per game.

I have to ask, what is he doing when he gets there? How is he interfering?

When not doing the scorebook for both varsity teams I do the stats for our JV Girls team. I track the fouls on my stat sheet.Plus all of the scorers (mostly adults for Varsity and students for JV) here have the knowledge beforehand to tell a coach when a kid has 2,3,4,and 5 fouls (disqualification) making such a practice unecessary.

From what I've noticed during the Varsity games is that when the AC comes over to the table, he's doing it by himself, without the HC asking him to, then relaying what he's seen to the HC. Majority of the time he does it is during live ball situations.

Like I stated in an earlier post, the way the coaching/statistician is setup, the ACs are extra bench personnel there as bench warmers (except during timeouts), as advisers to the HC. The statisticians are students/lower level players that sit behind the team bench with a computer/clipboard.

Both my wife & I are going to contact the HC & mention to him what we have learned & that it is a hinderance to the table that the AC is coming over looking at information that the statisticians are keeping track of.

The HC, throughout the game, when there is a lull in the action asks the Scorer about the player fouls by staying within the coaching box, so really there is no need for the AC to leave to the bench area to obtain information that the HC has asked for.

Generally the scorer is in constant communication with the HC concerning the fouls, that there are times the HC does not even need to ask.

That's a problem if he's doing it while the ball is in play. One warning, that's it.

I know, my point is that as an official, I neither know nor care to know how each school structures their team. I've seen coaches "look" younger than some of the players, so I wouldn't think twice about whether a person looks like a coach or a student or a manager or a statastician.

This is how I normally see it done. I expect your head coach will thank you and proceed to do things as he always has.

I will add this; there's nothing in the rules that prevents an AC from being the statistician/manager.

Red Chief, The Sequel ...
 

Polite. Well mannered. Wait a minute? What have you done with the real Jurassic Referee and how much ransom do we have to pay for you to keep him?

I know there's nothing in the rules that prevents an AC from being a statistician or manager.

However, if there are students or others acting in the capacity of statistician &/or manager, besides a member of the coaching staff, does that not mean that the AC is disqualified to approach the table?

I know when I was the Boys' Manager, I was given all the duties of the manager during games & the ACs were just there to assist the HC with calling plays. However when I was manager, never was I asked to approach the table as the HC was in constant communication with the table or if his attention was elsewhere one of the ACs would relay the information to him from the table via audio communication from the table.

Of course each school/team does things a bit differently, as well as the views of each floor official is different, as I learned last night.

Nowhere in the rules is the statistician or manager defined; this means, in my game, anyone inquiring about stats is a statistician (except the HC). Also, nowhere in the rules does it say only one person can hold the position.

Again, asking about stats is one thing. Hovering over the table is another.

Doing it during a timeout or intermission is one thing; doing it during live play is another.

Further thoughts. Case plays generally, unless otherwise noted, correspond with the rule number. Case 10.5.1C, for example, should correspond with rule 10-5, which is about the Head Coach. I'm gonna cogitate on that a bit this evening.

Be sure to quit before you go blind.

Go for it. Tell him you're both just not gonna stand for it any longer.

Please be sure to report back on how he took the news.

Btw, does the little woman also have her own taser? If not, Christmas is coming. Just saying......

Billy, I told you before that I are now the kinder, gentler JR.

Want the IAABO exam? I've got that and the answers.

LMAO My wife is not such a stickler for rules/regulations like I am. However I am working on lowering my threshold of being so stringent.

Stopped when I needed glasses.

The more I think about it, the more I think this case play is intended to apply to the Head Coach (the only coach acknowledged by the rules) only.

That makes zero sense to me. What part of "If this information is required, it MUST be secured by a manager or statistician, etc. when the clock is stopped and the ball is dead." do you think is ambiguous in any kind of way?

While I agree with you, one hole, as was previously mentioned, is the definition of exactly who is the manager or statistician? There is no definition. Presumably, it can't be "coach" (only one is actually defined in the book). But it could be just about anyone else as far as I can tell.

Perhaps it is expected to be a person that is not on the coaching staff and not a team member, but I've seen no such definition....and who exactly is on the coaching staff?

We tell our people to find out pre-game exactly who the head coach and his assistants are. They may get a little more leeway in some circumstances than an adult manager, statistician, etc. might.

Of course, whether they all actually do that or not is whole 'nother story.

This is interesting; I've never been told this. We know who the head coach is based on his attendance at the pregame meeting. That's it. I don't know nor care who the assistant coaches are, nor how they are differentiated from the statistician. The way I read the rule and case play, the HC cannot be the statistician; but I see no other restrictions.

If the rulz rulz, where is it?

Also, any other case plays you know of that are not numbered according to the correct rule?

I usually assume that the person with a scorebook or laptop is the statistician.

Really? :confused: In all locations I've been in, that's been pretty much the standard in all of them. AC's are to be seen and not heard. A quick, "coach, your AC is about to buy you a seat" is normally all that's necessary to quiet them down. Is this normal for other areas to address HC and assistants as well?

Roger

There are players, a head coach and all the rest are bench personell IMO.

I won't speak for mbyron, but for me, if an assistant coach, during say a timeout, wants to ask me an appropriate question and he/she does so in a professional way, I'm not going to tell him/her I won't ask because they aren't the head coach. I do the same thing when interacting with a player that isn't a captain. The first time I have a problem with the assistant, the head coach will hear about it.

That's at least what I got out of that statement.

How you handle an assistant is up to you IMO. A lot of officials do not want to deal with assistance and I understand why. Often they think they need to ask a question every time something happens and that gets annoying. But to be real the rules gives certain responsibilities to the head coach or by rule "coach." It is up to you how you want to deal with them. No right or wrong either way from my point of view.

Peace

Yup, that's it. A total unwillingness to speak to AC's under any circumstances comes across badly. First sign of a problem, though, and we'll talk only to HC.

"Players" are the 5 on the floor. The people on the bench are not players. They are team members and/or substitutes and are part of the group called bench personnel....along with managers, coaches, statisticians, etc.