Please Help ...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes you did. And I didn't know the answer, which is why I ended the last sentence in the post, "Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, ... may not get involved in pregame warmups?" with a question mark.

Is there such a rule that tells us who may warmup with the team, and who may not? What if the team chaplain (bench personnel) dunks during pregame warmups?

Jurassic Referee: Do you have an interpretation on this, or are you playing "devil's advocate? I know that you must, at least, have an opinion.

There is no rule that I know of that states who can or can't warmup. I don't think that you have any rules justification to stop bench personnel such as team trainers/statisticians from warming up with team members as long as they were legally dressed. The rules just don't cover it. I do know that there is no valid reason by rule for the R to check or do anything about the number of players warming up pre-game if that number differs with the number of players in the book. The old thread that Scrappy posted kinda alluded to that. That's why I took exception with you for including that coda in your Administrative Infraction essay.

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel. The only rule even close imo is rule 2-8-1 which covers unsporting conduct by a team follower, and I'd be very, very careful about issuing a "T" using that rule. Just have that person removed from the court.
2) The rules related to pre-game dunking refer to players and team members only. They do not relate to other members of a team's bench personnel afaik. However, there is nowayinhell you should ever allow those bench personnel members to dunk pre-game. I doubt very much that was the purpose and intent of the no pre-game dunking rule. In that particular case, you can use the language of rule 10-4-1 which says bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul and also says that "this includes but is not limited to...". Iow you can call a "T" if you feel that an act is unsporting...and someone from bench personnel dunking pre-game sureasheck is committing an unsporting act imo. Note that the penalty is exactly the same as the penalty for a player/team member dunking pre-game. It's a direct "T" to the offender and an indirect "T" to the head coach.

Rules rulz! The odds are a million to 1 that you'd ever actually see in a real game what we're discussing. If by some stoopid happenchance it actually did occur though, I would just use what rules I do have and then post-game try to get a definitive ruling from my state governing body.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel.

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

Yup, but that doesn't make him a player or a team member by rule. And the strict language of rule 10-3-3 applies ONLY to players and team members. NFHS rule 4-34-4 says "A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. You are eligible to become a player when your name is added to the team member list. If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

There is nothing in the rules that I know of that states that a coach can't have bench personnel other than his players or team members dressed in uniforms and sitting on the bench if the names of those bench personnel are NOT put on the team member list. And there is also nothing in the rules that I know of that won't allow bench personnel to warmup with their team. If you can find a citation that makes any of that illegal, please let me know.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

Define not eligible. A name is accidentally left off the list. The person in question enters the game, then has his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. He is certainly now eligible. He became a player when he entered the court. Was he ever "not eligible?"

Furthermore, consider the intent and purpose of the rule. Dunking is not allowed in the warmups. Following your logic, Lebron James could go back to his old high school, suit up with the team, and put on a dunking exhibition during the warmups every night to inspire the players and their fans. Do you think this is the intent of this rule? I don't.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) Define not eligible. A name is accidentally left off the list. The person in question enters the game, then has his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. He is certainly now eligible. He became a player when he entered the court. Was he ever "not eligible?"

2) Furthermore, consider the intent and purpose of the rule. Dunking is not allowed in the warmups. Following your logic, Lebron James could go back to his old high school, suit up with the team, and put on a dunking exhibition during the warmups every night to inspire the players and their fans. Do you think this is the intent of this rule? I don't.

1) Um, yes, if that player's name was not on the team member list, then he is not eligible until his name is put on that list.I agree that someone from bench personnel can become eligible to be a team member at the expense of a technical foul. But until they do become eligible by being placed on the team member list, they are NOT a team member by rule.

2) I believe that I've already stated using my logic that this hypothetical situation can be handled by using the language of rule 10-4-1. That rule covers the actions of all bench personnel and also gives you the same result as the application of rule 10-3-3( direct "T" to BronBron and indirect "T" to his head coach). That sureasheck does cover the intent of the rule imo.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) I believe that I've already stated using my logic that this hypothetical situation can be handled by using the language of rule 10-4-1. That rule covers the actions of all bench personnel and also gives you the same result as the application of rule 10-3-3( direct "T" to BronBron and indirect "T" to his head coach). That sureasheck does cover the intent of the rule imo.

If it gives you the same result, what are we arguing about? I thought you had said that you could not T a guy for dunking if he wasn't a team member. Is this not the case?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If it gives you the same result, what are we arguing about? I thought you had said that you could not T a guy for dunking if he wasn't a team member. Is this not the case?

Just to be accurate, in post #28 of this thread you said that if someone is in uniform and warming up with the team, you can "T" that person up if he dunks. I don't agree with that at all. Whether you can "T" that person up depends on whether that person is bench personnel or not. If that person is not bench personnel, just have that person removed from the court. The only way that you could T this person up is by labelling him a team follower and using R2-8-1. That rule should only be used under extreme circumstances. If the person is bench personnel, find out whether that person is also a team member. If he is a team member, you can assess a "T" under R10-3-3 if they dunk. If he is not a team member, assess a "T" under R10-4-1 if they dunk.

That's the distinctions by rule that I've been trying to point out.

And also please note that I'm also still waiting for someone...anyone.... to find something....anything....under NFHS rules that says that the officials can actually do or are supposed to do something....anything... if their pre-game count of people warming up doesn't match the number of people listed as team members in the score book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do know that there is no valid reason by rule for the R to check or do anything about the number of players warming up pre-game if that number differs with the number of players in the book.

By rule, you are 100% correct.

Again, that's just the way we do it around here. Not in the rulebook. Probably not in the manual. Nobody's doing anything wrong if they don't do it. It's just the way we've been doing it here in our little corner of Connecticut for, at least, the last thirty years.

Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

[BillyMac]

NFHS 2009-11 Basketball Officials Manual
Part 2 Game Procedures – Crew Of Two (page 15)
2.1 Pregame
A. Referee’s Duties:
7. Count the number of visiting team squad members.
8. Obtain the same information from umpire regarding the home team.
9. Verify the number of team members ... in the scorebook for each team.
B. Umpire Duties:
1. Count the number of home team squad members.

I know that the NFHS doesn't suggest to us what to do if the counts don't match up, but the NFHS must want us to do all this counting for some reason? Why are we counting? I think I know, but it's only for my little corner of Connecticut. Why is the rest of the country counting? Ask the NFHS. They must know the reason.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 2009-11 Basketball Officials Manual
Part 2 Game Procedures – Crew Of Two (page 15)
2.1 Pregame
A. Referee’s Duties:
7. Count the number of visiting team squad members.
8. Obtain the same information from umpire regarding the home team.
9. Verify the number of team members ... in the scorebook for each team.
B. Umpire Duties:
1. Count the number of home team squad members.

I know that the NFHS doesn't suggest to us what to do if the counts don't match up, but the NFHS must want to so all this counting for some reason? Why are we counting? I think I know, but it's only for my little corner of Connecticut. Why is the rest of the country counting? Ask the NFHS. They must know the reason.

I'm well aware of what the Manual says, Billy. I have no idea what the definition of a "squad member" is by rule though. I'm guessing that it's the same as being a team member, but.... I'm just guessing. What I can't understand though is why there needs to be a count. There is nothing that I am aware of in the rules anywhere that states you can do anything with that information after you get it. Or that you are supposed to do anything if a team has more or fewer people warming up than are listed on the team member list.

You count people warming up. I don't know why. You verify the number of names listed as being team members. That's so that additional names aren't added after the 10-minute pre-game time limit specified. There's no rules prerequisite that I know of that states those numbers have to match-up though. That's my point.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By rule, you are 100% correct.


Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

I would hope that everyone does that. If you are in a 3 person crew your U1 and U2 should each be assigned a team to count players and make sure they are in "dress code". In a two person crew....need I explain. Then when the R goes to the table they should match the number they were given by their partners and what is in the book. Maybe even double check it yourself. That way if there are discrepancies, they can be sorted out before it gets REALLY interesting!

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

We do in Maine, too.

I always say that the toughest part of our jobs isn't block/charge or travelling, it's counting the moving kids during warmups!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I always say that the toughest part of our jobs isn't block/charge or travelling, it's counting the moving kids during warmups!

Been there. Done that. Especially the drill, mostly used by girls teams, using two balls, where they form two lines on the endline, in line with the lane lines, and circle around the elbows to get a pass from a teammate before laying it in. It's the basketball version of three card monte.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

We do in Maine, too.

"As Maine goes, so goes the nation"