"I'm 52 years old, and in all my years..."
 

"...of watching basketball, I've never said anything to an official after a game until now." "You are the most whistle happy official I've ever seen in those 52 years. I just thought you should know that."

This is the fan feedback I received after an MAYB game over the weekend in which 3 players on "her" team fouled themselves out of the game....and lost by 15 points in the process.

I could only smile and chuckle as she removed all doubt that she was absolutely clueless about the game and how it should be officiated.

WOW! Someone finally outdid me on the MAYB circuit! I worked that crap for a couple of summers and they stopped using me because there were more people leaving the buildings than entering because I was throwing every coach and spectator out. Those people were absolute nuts and of course everyone of them is a referee themselves in a former life. Thus, they know ALL the rules and you don't know jack. It was absolutely pathetic, youth sports at its worst. Never again!

"Thank you for noticing coach. I really do enjoy officiating and am glad that happiness is showing through. You just made my day. And BTW, I had you pegged for someone in their early 40's":D

I've worked dozens of MAYB games. Overall, I love the work. There are isolated instances of crap like this, though. What was interesting about this particular game was the fact the head coach was in my ear on two previous occasions during the game acknowledging how much his team was fouling and praising me for the way I handled one of his disgruntled/disrespectful players at mid-court during free throws.

I had the coach on my side. Grandma-fan was insanely lost in all the "drama". She should have sought a debriefing with her grandson's head coach before approaching me. But, that is ok. I was confident in how I managed the game. I'm ready to pizz her off next weekend - or whenever she dares to watch me work again. ;)

OK, help me out here. What is MAYB???

Thanks for asking, Rock. I'm on the other coast, and hadn't heard of it, either. Sounds like the equivalent of AAU in our area.

Nice reply, Judtech. I'd have to resist the temptation of saying, "You're ONLY 52?!" (That wouldn't end well.)

It's what I tell my wife when she asks if I want to take out the garbage.

A simple" You should get out more!" Probably does the trick here.

In terms of the level of play, AAU is much much better around here, imo. But, MAYB is a growing organization that attracts a lot of teams - good and bad - to dozens of tournaments with 5 game guarantees.

AAU ball around here uses a shot clock and, depending on age group, allows a player 6 personal fouls. MAYB does not utilize a shot clock and allows 5 player personals only.

As far as that 52 yr old Grandma-fan, when she approached me, she had a pleasant look on her face and extended her hand. I shook her hand (which turned out to be a mistake cuz she wouldn't let it go until she made her point). That's when she said, "I'm 52 years old". Of course, I immediately smiled and said "No no no! You look more like FORTY 2."

Unfortunately, she didn't fall over dead from being killed by my kindness. She wouldn't let go of my hand until I had all I could take of her perfume, hand lotion and criticism.

I have worked many of the alphabet soup leagues and all of them are basically the same. I do not know why this league would be much different as you still have coaches and fans that are clueless. And the kids are made up of players from different places or schools than who they would normally play with. The only difference I see is when we work these games from an officiating camp standpoint. As those camps encourage officials to take care of business and we are being evaluated for how we handle the coaches and players. Other than that, I do not see how these individuals behave differently.

Peace

"I'm 52 years old, and in all my years..."

Shoot, man, I use that line about twice a month. I try not to use it on the same referees, though.

I have to admit that, among many reasons for poor behavior by fans, coaches and players, one of those may well be "lazy officiating". I've given up a large pctg of my games this spring/early summer so I can attend my daughter's 12U games at some of these MAYB tournaments. And, to be honest, I'm appalled by the lack of hustle and interest on the part of the officials working some of her games. Little to no switching, reporting from the baseline by the lead official, no bump and run.

Anyone that watched me work this weekend (w/ the exception of 52 yr old granny super fan) saw an official that was working his butt off. I despise laziness.

I think sometimes it's lazy, others it's ignorance. Many newer officials working these leagues don't know jack about switching, reporting fouls, or positioning. Hell, half the time you're grateful when they're not both on the same side of the court. They're new, it's where they learn.

I won't disagree, Snaq, because there are a lot of new officials out there. Thing is, in my area, I've been around long enough now to know who the newbies are...and the guys I saw being lazy weren't newbies. They were apathetic midlings. IMO, they are no longer motivated by anything other than getting their games in and leaving with their game check.

No passion, no professional pride, no nuthin.

Sad.

Had a coach that "reffed too" over the weekend. I call a b/c foul on the defender just above the FT line extended. When I indicate that the throw-in is on the endline, he replies "that's above the FT line, we should get it side out!!"

Yeah ok ref, I'm sorry ummm, COACH :rolleyes:

Where the ball gets inbounded can be very important to a coach - and should be to a ref.

We get harped on this allot in our evaluations. I make sure to point the spot out to my partners and ensure they go there.

Yeah I excused a fan out of a district matchup this season. She somehow convinced the gym administrator that since she's a referee also that she was allowed leeway through the state that allowed her to return. I saw her back in the gym and killed the game and the administrator informed me of this. I politely let her know that there is no such provision that allows this and further she is only taking this lady's word that she was an official in the first place. I didn't want the adminstrator to look dumb by believing some lies and allowing an ejected fan back in the gym so it would be best for all parties if Ms. Thang was politely escorted back outside the gym. ;)

BTW....great point (pardon the pun). I'm working on doing this in a consistent manner. Another reason why I love working these tournaments. Lots of games provides lots of opps to strengthen weaknesses (and develop bad habits for some).

You get what you pay for. I expect officials always to hustle and put forth effort. But if someone is working multiple games and getting paid a fraction of what they get during the regular season I'm not expecting them switch on every foul or always come out to the proper reporting position.

These guys are getting paid the same game rate as they would for league games. Plus, they are doing a 4 or 5 game set, so it's a $100 day for them. They s/b hustling from the opening tip of game 1 to the final second of game 5.

edit: I did 8 games Sat and 8 games Sun and never slowed down...and I'm an old fart. I got paid the same game rate as the others. And, I give those players what they paid for.

$25/game in what regular season league? Maybe it's a regional thing, but around these parts when you are working for $20-25/game there are no expectations for the officials to be switching on every foul or to run out to the reporting area. And though I'm putting the throw-in at the proper spot sometimes that will entail a long-distance bounce so that my partner and I don't have to rotate.

The players don't care where you are reporting your fouls from.

Local competitive leagues - 5/6 grade and 7/8 grade.

Regardless....if an official has agreed to and is getting paid to officiate 4 or 14 games, the effort should be there unless something unforseen has occurred that would prevent max effort.

Okay, I have to ask, because the way you worded this leads me to believe the ball should have been taken out on the sideline. Unless it's in the FT circle, anything above the FT line would be taken out on the sideline. What am I missing?

I do not know if you can expect the best of the best officiating when you have guys working multiple games in a row and you have running clocks all day. It also does not help when everything about the games are modified to keep games within an hour. And most of the time you do not get the best officials working these tournaments at all. In many cases tournaments and leagues like this get whomever (or whoever :D) they can get. Most veterans that have been around are not working these games. I worked a tournament this past weekend where every official was hustling because it was a camp to get hired. And we were working 3 Person the entire time. It was tough to do that as teams were running up and down the court and hardly running offenses. I can only imagine what it would be like to work multiple games in a row and only two person with those athletes. Hard to get officials that can keep up in those cases let alone expect consistent hustle.

Peace

Like I said, must be a regional thing. I know one thing, when paying $20-25/game there is going to be some sort of trade-off. A majority (not all) of the officials are going to fall into 2 categories:

A) Newer officials who hustle their a$$es off but will make mistakes during the games due to inexperience.

B) More experienced officials who are there to put some $$$ in their pockets. These experieced officials are not going to run themselves silly during deadballs.

AMEN!

My bad, there was a call just above the FT line & well below the FT semi-circle. Mr. "I ref 2" Coach, wanted it side out.

Did you hear we got approved to wear grey next season?

"Yes - I do try to keep my whistle happy. I let it get sad once and it bit me on my tongue. Thanks for the input. Coming from an expert like you it means a lot." :p

I worked one years ago with the director of a rec league, who administrates for a living, but doesn't officiate.

Late in a game and during a time out, he comes to me and says, "Okay, number 20 has four fouls. Let's make sure the last one isn't a marginal one." I heartily explain to him that I never, ever want to know how many fouls a player has, because it can indeed compromise one's judgment and integrity.

"Well," he ponders as he looks away, "let's just agree to disagree."

Really?

Gotcha.
No, I hadn't heard that. Fascinating.

I smile and say ok. If I'm feeling ornery, I'd ask, "so which of the first four do you think were marginal?"

You're imposing your own personal standards on others. These are not "regular" games and the rate being paid reflects that. They're rec-league type games that are being paid accordingly and are getting performances commensurate with the pay being offered. I'm talking not about judgment, integrity, live ball hustle, and knowledge and such but the points about not switching on every foul, or reporting from a greater distance.

Of course, at those rates, they're not going to get a lot of the better refs to come out either....it is just not worth it.

Plus, any assignor willing to regularly put someone on more than 2 or 3 games is already indicating that the expectations are different. It is not possible to hustle for 8 games like you should and do for one or two. Even the best athletes really can't keep up that intensity for that long.

Having re entered the "Summer/Spring" circuit, I think there is a 'happy medium' that can be reached. I don't like officials who make calls from PAST mid court b/c they can't get down the floor, nor do I care for officials who get overly sloppy on their mechanics.
If you are used to working 3 person crews and are now doing back to back (to back) games in a 2 person format, you can adjust some of the switches/rotations etc, to both look professional and give it the best coverage you can. IMO, it is more important to watch your body language and 'the little' things b/c those will tell the teams, assignor and everyone else in the gym whether you are 'into it' or not.
If you are getting paid you should put forth effort, but to expect "maximum effort' when doing back to back or multiple game formats is a bit much

I'm not imposing anything on anyone, other than myself. If my partner doesn't want to hustle, then there isn't much I can do about it other than make sure I'm in correct position to do a good job. Hopefully, he takes the hint and elevates his "game"....which does happen quite frequently. It's a game of give and take, tho. My "attitude" on the forum about this isn't nearly as rigid on the court where my actions speak louder than words. It's all done with the right attitude, as well.

My perspective is as both a ref and a fan watching my daughter play AAU. There is a huge discrepancy in work ethic I see out there. The issue partly stems from the assignor. At one of the venues I work AAU, the assignor sent out a pre-AAU season email explaining exactly what he expected from his refs. Two man games.... He expects his refs to switch on all shooting fouls. He expects his refs to run from endline to hash mark at a minimum. Most reporting is done from where the foul occurred unless it is a shooting foul and switching is occurring. All other venues I have either watched or participated require much less than this. Also, this assignor assigns a max of 4 games. I believe there is no way you can hustle for more than 4 boys AAU games unless you are still in college and in great shape or just fooling yourself. After 4 games you should be completely soaked in sweat and exhausted if you are hustling.

Now from a parent/fan perspective, it often grates at me to see refs walk from endline to ALMOST midcourt and call only half court basketball. I have actually seen two refs each just call one half the court and in some venues this is not unusual and these guys never go faster than a slow walk. I guess it is up to the individual but I hope I am never so hard up that I turn into one of those guys.

NOTE -- my post is based strictly on two person games.

There it is. Like any other job, you ultimately have to make the boss happy, or he won't hire you again. Whether the boss puts forth a professional attitude or a lazy one, the workers will typically follow. If a worker doesn't do it as desired, the boss will take corrective action or just find someone else. In officiating, they'll often times just find someone else.

As for lazy officiating during off-season games, if it's a running clock, I can why officials wouldn't switch on every foul or walk-and-talk. Sometimes, it's about getting in every bit of basketball you can for the kids.

Well you would just have to be upset with someone like me that I do not hustle. Because if you think I am going to run like a regular game because you want to or do not want to, then you are sadly mistaken. Usually in these sittings I could be working from 2 to 6 games during a day or more than that over a couple of days. And in many of these cases we are not talking about camp games. I am not going to risk injury or even my health just to run when the players in many cases are not running the same either.

Peace

Don't take it personally, JR. I don't know you - thus my post was never direct toward you.

If you don't want to run your butt off and risk injury for a competitive tournament game, don't. I'm not suggesting anyone, myself included, should do anything that involves risking injury.

I think this discussion has more or less defined "hustle" for competitive tournament games, tho. And, it would obviously be something less than a Tues/Fri night boys big class varsity game.

My perspective is as an assignor who has to find people to cover hundreds of these games on a weekend......

If I told my people that they had to treat each game like a good HS varsity contest while doing multiple games a day, I couldn't find enough people to cover a fraction of the games. You get what you pay for. And if you want to pay typical low rec rates, you're gonna bodies. It just ain't worth it for a lot of officials, especially when you factor in the abuse that you know the officials are going to get.

The people who put on these tournaments do so to make as much money as they can. Typically, they could care less about the quality of the officiating they receive. They just want coverage. And the know-nothing fans and coaches don't have a clue either whether they're getting a good or bad whistle. If every single call doesn't go their way, the officiating is terrible anyway in their minds.

The main reason that any official does these off-season games is M-O-N-E-Y! And that fits right in with the reason these games are being played in the first place. If you want professional officiating, then put on a professional show and pay the appropriate rates. If you want to run a typical AAU off-season run-and-gun tournament, then don't whine about the officiating that you gonna get. It matches the play.

It's nice to have lofty officiating ideals, but there's real life involved too.

JMO.

Dude, relax. No one is responding to you because it is personal. I am responding to you because I think your point of view is off, completely off to be exact. And I actually would probably hustle more than you to be honest. I used to work a league where they only hired one official and I hustled more than most people here talk about. I just am realistic as to what these games are and I would not be expecting everyone to go balls out for a game they are paid in some cases not a 3rd of what they would make during the regular season.

Peace

Or you can run an officiating camp where officials are being evaluated, and then you can dictate more professionalism in these tournaments. Even that has limitations as it takes a lot of work and people to pay money to come to a camp and work multiple games.

Peace

My POV is "completely" off? Interesting. Not according to my assignor. He asks for 4 things from his officials: be on time = 15 mins early, call fouls/violations, don't say anything to anyone you don't want repeated and be in position to make calls = hustle.

re: you hustle more than me? what can i say other than, how would you know? i'm sure you are a stallion and can more than hold your own. as i've already said, don't take this personally. this thread wasn't designed with you in mind.

In my career, I have worked literally over 100 games solo. I work FT line to FT line and alternate from side to side, although I work probably 2/3 or more of the time opposite the table and benches. I administer FTs from next to the shooter.

There have been some times when the ball went OOB and I could not be absolutely certain who had the last touch that I hesitate a little to watch the movement of the players, which sometimes indicates who is supposed to inbound. If it doesn't help, then I just make the best call I can.

One thing that helps when I work solo in our local kids rec league is that we don't allow coaches to request timeouts from the bench. I've worked other games that do, and it's hard sometimes to recognize that request because you have so much of your focus on the game action.

Also, don't hesitate to throw the ball to an inbounder from across the court after pointing to the spot.

uh, mark. did you mean to post that here ------> http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...rson-mech.html :)

Well he is wrong too. I have worked multiple games during the summer and off season and never had one assignor ever expect that the games be worked like a regular game. They certainly are not expecting us to report a foul or expecting switching on ever foul. Hell there are guys that do not even use all the signal mechanics and no one cares even the participants. I would be glad I do not work for the people you work for because I would not work for them if you are giving me 4 and 5 games in a row. Sorry, not happening.

I used to work a league that used one man officiating. I used to sprint all over the court. There is a thread that is about one person mechanics and usually the recommendations are to run from 3 point line to 3 point line. I would go all over the court and never stopped anywhere and would officiate wherever I needed an angle. Then when I work games now, I sprint to get into position during live ball and have to do so more often if because these leagues do not always run standard offenses. Again, you keep talking about me as if I am responding to only what I do. You came on here talking like you are the one sitting the standard for everyone and because some people have taking you on then they are taking it personally. I find that rather interesting. If you did not want people to respond to what you had to say, why did you put it out there in the first place? My comments are not about me, my comments are about what is should be expected and you have every right to disagree.

I know a lot of officials across the country, not just here. No one I have ever come in personal contact with does what you suggest. Not a one. And that includes guys that work D1 and other levels when it comes to this issue. I have seen for myself guys work games that have a much bigger background in officiating than you or I and hardly run when working for $20. So I guess this is about them too because they would not achieve your standards too?

Peace

From my experience, this post by JR is extremely accurate.

I'll be sure to let him know you said that being in position during tournament games that he schedules is not important. (blue font)



I'm not setting any standard(s)...just striving to work up to the level of more experienced officials and the example they set.

I work for more than just the $20. Since I don't know the same people you know, it's impossible to know why they do what they do the way they do it.

Hmmm. fan comes out of the stands to talk to the referee? Sounds like an easy EJ to me. Don't care what your day job is - once the game starts everyone in the stands is just a fan.

No, this was my partner, who just filled in as an official.

bs!!!

+1

Not a very credible statement unless you're Superman.

Dlh
 

I suppose that all 16 games were uphill, into the wind, the gym was a brick oven, there was no water except for what he squeezed from the blades of grass outside the gym between games where he would conduct wind sprints.

Basketball lurker, football/baseball/softball official here.

I've had many Saturdays where I worked 3-5 75-90 minute football games in the morning and a varsity game that night... or 3-5 60-75 minute softball or baseball games in the morning and a varsity or JV/Vars game at night.

I GUARANTEE you that I and 90% of the other officials I work with in the same boat did what they could to call a decent game but conserve their energy during those peewee or youth games so as to be truly ready for the later contests.

The other factor you're not getting is that when you pay low, the level of official you attract tends to be lower --- not a blanket statement regarding EVERY official you get ... but the average talent/effort is lower because those guys that naturally hustle every game are working somewhere else for more money.

Which part?

these games were last weekend at one of the nicer h.s. gyms in the area. the a/c was working just fine. free water for officials at the concession stand, as well. got to work in front of and talk to a few h.s. coaches, as well. neat deal.

I see.
I am sure you will reap the appropriate rewards.

So you are a suck-up. :(

So glad that the coaches have no say in the assignment process where I am.

Nothing worse than an official who caters to the coaches. :mad:

Ding, ding, ding... what do we have for our winner, Johnny? :D

+1

No matter how you try to sugar coat it, it is still just a little kids game that is paying about half (or less) of the normal rate.

Yes, you're off.

Your biggest type of complaints in the early part of the thread seemed to be not switching and not coming to mid-court to report. Yet, the assignor's 4 items don't include anything about that. Not switching has nothing to do with being in position to make calls.
While there are a few that probably don't hustle to be in position, most offiicals I know do hustle while the ball is live and cut the corners in the dead ball mechanics....the stuff that has basically no effect 99% of the time.

That part is simply unbelievable, especially when you say that you were hustling at all times, using correct mechanics, etc.

Or BS, to put it another way.....:)

I noticed switching on all fouls and reporting fouls from the proper reporting area on not on his list. ;)

After reading through this thread I'm gonna say that Grandma has more credibility here in my eyes.

From your comments you seem (to me) to be a less experienced guy who needlessly stresses switching and reporting from a certain area in summer sets, claims to have worked 16 games in 2 days without slowing down at all, is star struck by varsity coaches, and may take yourself a bit too seriously. My experience with officials like this leads me to believe that there is a good possibility that you are whistle happy as well.

I will still work some AAU/summer league type set ups where I do 4-5 or even more games in one day. I do these for the guy who called many of my HS games and mentored me as an official. Many of us have worked for him for years and know the tricks of the trade to save our legs in these type of situations. And the assinger encourages it. We hustle during live ball and get in position to have good angles on plays but on dead ball situations we work together to save ourselves for the long haul. Coaches, players, and fans don't notice this and the very few that do understand and are concerned with the accuracy of calls and how we manage the game, nothing else.

I understand if you are working on something or practicing your mechanics but there is really no reason to exert extra energy on the type of stuff your stressing in these situations. And as others have said people understand that you are not gonna get the same type of officiating paying people $25/game and asking them to work multiple games in a row as you are when guys are making $70 and working 1 game. That's life and common sense.

Whenever I step on the court I will do my best to give the competitors quality officiating but I am also gonna be smart and efficient in how I spend my energy in AAU/summer tournament ball.

I do not work for him so I really am not concerned what he thinks. ;)

Good for you. But as people pointed out that those standards you quoted did not include the thing you are advocating. That says it all.

I get paid around $60 a game for a high school game. I get over $100 for a college game (in some cases $150). I am not exerting the same amount of energy for one high school or college game that I am working for an AAU game. And no one I know that works is doing the same either. I even worked at a college game a couple of "paid" games and I can tell you that I did not do the same things during the "paid" game as I did when the camp games were going on. And no one did when I watched them work. But if you claim you do that is fine with me. And I will even take it a step further, I know many officials that will not hustle that much during live ball play. Why? Because they are being paid a fraction of what they would make and you are asking them to work multiple games in a row or over the course of a few days. And that is why many people here are calling what you saying as BS.

Look, do what you want and expect what you want, but do not expect that people will agree with you.

Peace

doing 8 games in a 2 on 1 off format for two days affords three 60 min breaks each day. hustling and using good mechanics is not difficult at all in that format.

8 games in a row on back to back days - ya, that would be a tall order and can see how people would think as they are.

back to my daughter's games....here's some examples of what i've seen:

trail calling a jump ball at or below the front court ft line extended while he is standing still, positioned at the time line in the backcourt and was straight lined. lead official was moving in to see the play

as lead, coasting into 'position' at just under the ft line extended in the front court
instead of below the base line

official failed to signal, audibly or with a directional, possession on unclear oob violations

official failed to indicated what type of foul was committed - coaches left wondering if there was a push, hold, hand check, block

failed to chock the clock during final two minutes of game when stopped clocked action started

these are off the top of my head

this was the primary reason for my initial comments that perhaps part of the reason why some officials 'get into trouble' might actually be because they bring it on themselves

hustling to be in proper position would probably reduce the number of instances of angst on the part of said official, coaches and players.

then again, he was getting paid $20 for that game, so what should i have expected? the guy to do his job? i guess not.

realistically, there all types of officials...some are not the strongest on the rules...some aren't the strongest game managers....some aren't the best communicators.....some are having bad days.....etc etc. one thing that most officials have control over is their own effort. if effort and hustle are present, i think an official can be much more effective and respected.

DLH17,

This is what you said way back in this thread.

No comments about positioning during live ball or even comments about where at all were made in your original comment. You specifically referenced several dead ball actions which the things highlighted and underlined says. Now when that did not go over well, you now give examples of plays during live ball.

And yes we can control our hustle, but many also realize what these games are. Money grabs and nothing more. I cannot recall that I have ever got a big assignment from a summer AAU ball (or even high school during the summer) game where there was no camp element to them. And because most officials know this, you get what you pay for.

And I couldn't not really give a damn what coaches think of me during the summer. Be happy I am even out there. I can do other things during that period of time.

Peace

And tonight I watched two partners overhustle as they chased loose balls out of bounds.

I apologize for not being more specific. Nonetheless, what I listed are things that bothered me during her games. Add them all up and you can see why I feel strongly about it. If you can't put down your hatchet long enough to realize I'm not your internet nemesis, I suggest you consider moving on to other reading/posting that doesn't support high blood pressure.

It's amazing how quickly you get turned sideways when I post.

I enjoy meeting new people/renewing old acquaintances when officiating. Other officials, players, coaches. I enjoy what I do within reason. Summer is a great time to be a little more relaxed - wear shorts, talk before after games when another game is getting ready to start - yet still work on mechanics, management and people skills. Sounds like you have it all down and don't give a crap about much else. I'm happy for you. I doubt I'll ever lose my pure love of the game and all the stuff that goes with it. You can paint that - and probably will - in some unflattering way towards me, and that's fine. I'll keep having fun and improving and you can keep on "not giving a damn".

That's where I draw the line! Officials in the leagues/tournaments I work expect the players to chase loose balls. I'll fetch the dribblers trying to sneak off, but the players chase the ones under the bleachers or going out the exit. :)

For the record, I frequently do both of these during summer games with a running clock.
A. In my area we work most of our varsity contests with 3 officials. I've learned that the C often has the best look at plays. It can actually be more effective to have a C and T in many situations than a L and T. This is especially true in transition. Therefore, as I come down to the new L, I will often pause around the FT line extended. If the ball stays up high, I'll hold that position for a bit. If offensive team takes a quick shot or drives to the basket, I actually have a great look. If the action settles and they try to work the ball down low, I'll move down to the endline to cover the post players better. The positioning of the players and the ball location dictate where is the best location to observe the action. The end line isn't automatically the best just because the book says to stand there.

B. Who cares if it was a push, hold, or block? It was foul. If the coach needs to know, he can ask. Most of them don't care. You don't see the scorer recording the number of holds do you?

True. There is more credibility for the call and less for the coach or player when an official is well-positioned. Of course, that isn't going to stop the complaining. If a call goes against a team or player, there will be complaints even if the official has a perfect view.

I've tried to explain above that the official can sometimes do his job from positions other than those described in the manual. However, if that argument isn't your cup of tea, then I'll add that if tournament organizers weren't so greedy and didn't attempt to stick as many dollars into their pockets as possible, they could offer more than $20 per game for officials which would attract more officials to an event. This would alleviate the need for officials to work so many games in a day and permit for more effort to be expended during each contest. It is due to the short-sightedness of those who put on the events that officials are forced to conserve their energy and pace themselves throughout the day at these events.
Most officials aren't fabulous athletes. The ones who are won't be working for $20 per game. So again, it's a case of getting what you pay for. If you want to attract better talent then you have to offer more compensation. That's the case in the business world.

There is no argument to that. However, unless one is a marathon specialist, there is a limit to how much one can run during multiple games.

The funny part about this conversation is the entire time you have tried to make this personal. This is not personal. This is just a conversation based on what you said. And the more you have been called on your BS, the more you try to run from your original comments. I have a lot more going for me than what we are talking about here. If you really think my blood pressure is going up over this conversation, maybe you have more to learn about officiating than I thought. And that is really obvious this week as I have several officiating things going on that I have to participate in.



Here you go again. I did not say anything about meeting people and working or not working on mechanics. Actually for me summer ball is used for one reason and one reason only. See more plays. By this time of the year my schedule for the coming season is pretty much set. I do not need summer ball to establish this outside of camps. And certainly not during AAU games. And coaches have no say in if I get hired or not hired in any high school or college league. So that is why I do not give a damn about what they think or do not think of my game. For the record I have had run-ins with coaches only to see them during the regular season and see them realize that what they think of me obviously does not matter. So I do not need their approval of any kind to work games when it counts. Apparently you do need that approval and that is why you take this all to a personal level that I was only commenting on your words about hustle, not our personal stances in officiating.

Peace

Good points, Nevada. Comparing 2 man lead positioning near the ft line extended in some situations to 3 man C positioning makes sense.

As far as who cares about what the foul was....I've heard/seen many coaches left wondering what their player did and ask so they can coach their player after the fact at some point. So, I've just gotten into the habit of giving a preliminary and also showing the call when reporting. Overall, it seems like coaches tend to move on easier if they know why the official stopped play. Questions are always accepted, tho, in case they just can't figure out what the heck just happened even with proper reporting. That's ok. Communication with game participants can be enjoyable to a point.

Of course, no amount of hustle and proper positioning will prevent all complaining by coaches and players. To think it will is being naive at the least. Hustling is better than not hustling, tho, if that's all ya' got going for ya'. :)

The point made about game fees is spot on. At the very least, we probably deserve an increase in pay for these types of games. Heck, 20 bucks was prolly the game fee 10 years ago, no?

JR....relax. This isn't personal. Everything I've said about my experiences in this thread are factual.

I'm ok with the fact you "don't give a damn".

Perhaps move on to another thread you can control or whatever it is you find gratifying.'

edit: and, I never said anything about "needing coach's approval". you assume that to be true. in reality, i have fun what i do. it's a people business.

You hustled and used the correct mechanics on all plays in every game. And you're 52 years old. And you never slowed down one little bit, even in your eighth game of your second day doing 8 games/day.

BS, DLH17, BS. :)

There's a real world out there. You're living in LaLaLand.

And btw, when everybody in that real world out there tells you that maybe you should re-think your position, don't you think that maybe...just maybe...it might not be a bad idea to consider that option?

I will comment on any darn post I damn well want to comment on. You just got caught saying something and you have been called on your BS by a lot of people. And those people are all over the country and in different jurisdictions. And you even have people that do not agree on many things tend to see through your BS. Maybe you are the one that needs to move on to another thread and stop digging yourself such a big hole by saying things that make no sense.

I will say this again. I do not believe for a second that you do all these things so well and you are working multiple games in a row. I will not buy at all regardless of your age. It would take a great deal of focus or extreme shape to accomplish that feat. And as someone that evaluates officials as part of my career and the position I hold, I seriously doubt you are what you say you are.

Peace

You are the mouthpiece for a bunch of people from many different jurisdictions on an anonymous internet forum, huh? Talk about BS. Take the chip off your shoulder.

And, I will say again - I don't consider myself to "do all these things so well". But, I do listen, learn and hustle.

Finally, where did I say I officiated "multiple games in a row"?

On all plays in every game? Probably not. I'm human.

100% effort to try to be mechanically correct on all plays...w/o a doubt. As mechanically correct as possible most of the time... absolutely. Why would I try not to be?

Everybody? I love that. EVERYBODY.

Anyway, to answer your question - did you read my response to Nevadaref? He gave some helpful input. Loved it. Useful. Helped me evaluate my take on lead in 2 man in situations where lead can't get all the way to baseline.

Nevadaref can post on any damn thread he wants and gives damn good feedback w/o blowing a gasket.

Falls under the category of "hustling", no?

Seriously, I'm not sure if you understand or not, but this is the part people are calling BS. You may have tried, you may have hustled, you may have even been in position; but to suggest you didn't even slow down after 5 games on the same day? Most of us can maintain some sort of suspension of disbelief, but this stretches it for us.
And, if it's true that you were able to do all this, well, it's a good thing they don't test officials for PEDs. If you're simply a freak of nature, that's different, but you should at least excuse our disbelief. We had no idea you were actually Jon Diebler in disguise.

You're a better man than me Gunga Din......
 

I pride myself in being in pretty good shape for my age. About a month ago after this last winter season ended I did five tourney games in a row on a HS sized court. I gave it my all for sure, but much as I tried, I know I defintiely s l o w e d down by the end. Then, I drove the 40 minutes home, opened the car door, and had one heck of a time just getting out of the car. So sad..... :o

The mind is willing buy the flesh is weak.....

As Clint once said (insert photo here), "A man's got to know his limitations." And, I know mine - depending on the size of the floor.

Pet peeve. Every once in awhile I will have a player look at me and ask "Aren't you going to get the ball?" I always respond, "I don't need a ball to do my job but you might need one to do yours"!!
As for an earlier comment, about the disrespect of some for officials who try to cater to coaches, I must make a confession. I fully admit to doing my best to cater and win favor with one particular HS coach in the area. She is a very tall, athletic and leggy coach with nice green eyes and light brown hair...............oh yeah she also has the same last name as mine! (no I do NOT live in wv and she is NOT my sister!!:cool:)

No... he's just the only one still reading your nonsense and replying to it. Most of the rest of us gave up on you long ago.
LOL. Wow. If only the internet kept threads so you could go back and read what you said ... oh... yeah... it does. Idiot.

Show me.

Post 21.

Ok...thanks for pointing that out. I can see how people would question that. Maybe I physically "slowed down" from game 1 to game 8, but the effort and hustle did not diminish. In game 8, I'm still making a concerted effort to call a good game and be in the right place at the right time. Did I run from baseline to half court in the same amount of time near the end of the day as the beginning of the day? Probably not. Was I still running to my spots. Absolutely. If you clocked me, sure, I'm probably a little "slower". But noone would look at me and say, 'geez, that guy is spent. he's not even running or making an effort at this point.'.

the word(s) "consecutive" and "in a row" are nowhere to be found

LOL, I've never had a player ask. I just say, "help with the ball please." If a quick step will recover the ball and I don't have to turn away from the players, I'll do it. Summer ball here is a lot of running clocks, so the players don't want to lose playing time watching the ball bounce in the bleachers.

It happens occasionally. I chased a ball ONCE my first year at a camp. Let's just say that the evaluator disuaded me from doing that again!!
In games with running clocks and a player just shagged a loose ball, I feel it is IMPERATIVE to make sure that there are 5 players from each team on the floor, there are no subs waiting at the table, my partner/s are ready and have no information to give me, remind the player whether it is a 'spot' throw in or they can run and making sure the defender does not reach over plane before I take one last look around before handing the ball to the player to put in play. I just LOVE running clocks!!;)

Really... after 5 pages of people calling you out, THIS is your defense for the lie? You sound like a buddy of mine who will wordsmith to death just to win an argument for the purposes of winning the argument... instead of actually making a point.

Are you really trying to tell me now, backtracking desperately, that you managed to work 16 games in a weekend without working "consecutive" or "multiple games in a row"? Really?

Come on. Jim Joyce made the biggest blunder in 25 years, and immediately owned his mistake. Stop wordsmithing, and admit that you at the VERY LEAST misled everyone. You asserted that you could work 16 games in 2 days "without slowing down". (You should certainly be able to see why one would assume that at least some of these were either consecutive or multiple games in a row (depending on who you are arguing with). This is why you're getting blasted, and are losing credibility in a fast ugly spiral.

If you don't go all out in your first game, then you don't need to slow down in your eighth game. I'm not saying that's what happened, only that it fits the statements given.

I prefer to disbelieve all the time. You can believe me on that.

so, in summary: you are calling me an "idiot" and a "liar"?

amazing

you put words into my mouth, then call me the liar

i asked you to back up what you claim i said. you can't do it.

i was very clear about those games. they were done in a 2 on 1 off format over two days. 3 one hour breaks both days between 2 game sets.

read the entire thread before calling me a liar

If the shoe fits.

I called you an idiot because you claimed to never state you had worked multiple games and asked me/us to show you where you said it... I had no trouble finding it... you shouldn't have either. I'm calling you a liar for lying. That simple.

I put no words in your mouth. I quoted you.

I truly have no idea what you're talking about now. I claim you said what you said in post 21. You did. You asked me to show you where you said you worked consecutive games ... I did. Perhaps the actual word "consecutive" was not in post 21 ... but I think it's a safe assumption that working 8 games in a day, you worked consecutive games, probably multiple times. I can't imagine a tourney playing 15 games in a day - which is what it would have taken for you to work 8 without working consecutively... And below you admit doing just that, so why are you still arguing this point?

No ... you weren't. This is the VERY first time you've said it was 2 on 1 off. However - 2 on... isn't that "consecutive" or "multiple games in a row".

The LIE, sir, was telling us you worked 8 games on 2 consecutive days and NEVER SLOWED DOWN. You've even admitted as such since then. THIS was the point no one believed (and turned out to be untrue). THIS was why so many were jumping on you.

Again.... BS!

Doing the math. In order for you to work 2 on 1 off that would require a set of 16 games. Using NFHS rules and mechanics, each game would take approx 1hr 15 min. That does not allow for OT orteams needing 5-10 minutes to warm up. That adds up to a 16 hr day. You would need to eat and stay properly hydrated, which is harder for older people.

Most games require 4-5 miles of running (stopping, starting, etc). That adds up to 64-80 miles for your 16 game set. For you to keep the pace you claim, you would be an elite marathoner. Even at a steady pace, with no quick transitions, is hard to believe that you had no drop off.

I have been to plenty of camp settings, the kids playing the games have more time off (2 games), have substitutes and are much younger and can recover on their worst day, faster than most 52 yr olds.

So keep on kissing the butts of the coaches and making the same unbelievable claims, you will be rewarded accordingly.

20 min halves...running clock, except last 2 mins of each half. clock runs when lead hits 15 pts. standard mayb stuff. 3 gyms in separate bldgs on the same campus were used.

saturday sched: 10a/11a on, 12p off, 1p/2p on, 3p off, 4p/5p on, 6 off, 7p/8p on

sunday sched: 10a/11a on, 12p off, 1p/2p on, 3p off, 4p/5p/6p on

yes, i lied. i did 7 on sunday, not 8. i feel terrible. lost track.

never said i did 8 straight.

Some very experienced and knowledgable officials have disagreed completely with you to date in this thread. Posters whose acumen I certainly respect. If I posted something that they disagreed with so vehemently, I'd sureasheck be questioning myself as to whether I had the right take on something. But, hey, that's just me.

Carry on carrying on. :)

I hear you, and I hope I've done that here (see responses to Nevadaref). That's why I originally came to this site. Nevadaref and Snaqwells have been great. You've smacked me a couple of times - ok - fine. I'll live and learn.

Lots of vitriol from others, tho. And, they are anonymous names to me. The only thing I know for sure is JRut is some sort of evaluator that has a busy week coming up.

"idiot"...."liar".... love that stuff from mbchowder. I think his head is going to explode before too long. :D

No, it requires, at minimum, 11 games. 2 +1 + 2 + 1 + 2 +1 + 2
Last night I worked a league that had four games (I did two) and we were right on schedule with 1 hour per game.
4-5 miles? I have a hard time believing that.

Gotta disagree, slightly. To claim it was a lie implies an intent to deceive. Frankly, I think he just misspoke. He admitted to being less than clear, not to lying.

Not in spring and summer leagues. A lot of those games are played on MS and even elementary school courts which are much, much smaller.

Besides, who runs in those games? :rolleyes: