Backcourt question

[Mark Padgett]

Let me throw this into the mix. Say team A had control and they are in their frontcourt when A1 passes to A2. The ball deflects off A2 into their backcourt. A1 races after it and touches it in the backcourt at exactly the same time B1 touches it. It is a violation on team A? It's the same principle as the other situation in this thread. It comes down to this - does a simultaneous touching of the ball by a member of each team also count as an individual touching by each player? If yes, then we have a violation in both cases. If no, then no violation in either case.

I guess it is dependent on how you define "first to touch". Can two players each touch a ball "first"? If I touch the ball at exactly the same time as you, did I touch it "first"? To me, "first" means "before anyone else", not "at the same time as someone else". If we touch at the same time, then no one was "first". To be "first" at doing something, you have to do it before anyone else does it. To be "last" at something, everyone else has to have done it before you did. I don't have violations in either case.

Of course, I could be wrong. I was wrong once before - I think it was in 1970.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Let me throw this into the mix. Say team A had control and they are in their frontcourt when A1 passes to A2. The ball deflects off A2 into their backcourt. A1 races after it and touches it in the backcourt at exactly the same time B1 touches it. It is a violation on team A? It's the same principle as the other situation in this thread. It comes down to this - does a simultaneous touching of the ball by a member of each team also count as an individual touching by each player? If yes, then we have a violation in both cases. If no, then no violation in either case.

I guess it is dependent on how you define "first to touch". Can two players each touch a ball "first"? If I touch the ball at exactly the same time as you, did I touch it "first"? To me, "first" means "before anyone else", not "at the same time as someone else". If we touch at the same time, then no one was "first". To be "first" at doing something, you have to do it before anyone else does it. To be "last" at something, everyone else has to have done it before you did. I don't have violations in either case.

Of course, I could be wrong. I was wrong once before - I think it was in 1970.

Given the NFHS backcourt interpretation and since I am an interloping troublemaker: suppose team A has TC in the frontcourt and B deflects the ball into the backcourt. In a) before the ball bounces A1 and B1 simultaneously touch the ball. In b) A1 touches the ball simultaneous to the ball touching the floor. In C) A1 and B1 touch the ball simultaneous to the ball touching the floor. Whatcha got?
________
Vaporizer television

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

To me, "first" means "before anyone else", not "at the same time as someone else". If we touch at the same time, then no one was "first". To be "first" at doing something, you have to do it before anyone else does it.

So, in the Olympic 50m swimming final (or any other racing sport's final), if there's a tie for first place, then neither of athletes get a gold medal?

No. It's happened before, and BOTH get a gold medal. They were both first. (It goes gold-gold-bronze, for those keeping track of the medal count.)

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by bainsey

So, in the Olympic 50m swimming final (or any other racing sport's final), if there's a tie for first place, then neither of athletes get a gold medal?

No. It's happened before, and BOTH get a gold medal. They were both first. (It goes gold-gold-bronze, for those keeping track of the medal count.)

That's because it's written into their rules. Show me where it's written into NF basketball rules. If a game ends with both teams having the same number of points, do both teams win? Of course, I wouldn't know, since I've never worked a game in which both teams had the same number of points at the end of regulation time.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Show me where it's written into NF basketball rules.

What, the definition of "first" and "last"?

Those are simple English words, not basketball terms. We're expected to know their meaning coming into games.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by bainsey

What, the definition of "first" and "last"?

No. Reading my post, it should have been obvious that I implied there was no NF basketball rule that states if two teams have the same number of points at the end of regulation, then they both are awarded victory, as it is written into the rules of other sports.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Reading my post, it should have been obvious that I implied there was no NF basketball rule that states if two teams have the same number of points at the end of regulation, then they both are awarded victory, as it is written into the rules of other sports.

That doesn't change the fact that there are indeed simulataneous firsts, where multiple people/incidents can be first. In the case of the aforementioned backcourt question, both teams were first on the last frontcourt touch, and therefore, all three backcourt violation criteria are met.

[just another ref]

If we can stretch this thread to 4 or 5 pages, it may provoke an editorial revision in the new books when they come out. In the meantime, there is no definitive answer to the question.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by bainsey

all three backcourt violation criteria are met.

There's four backcourt violation criteria, not three.

1) there must be team control
2) the team in control must be last to touch the ball in frontcourt
3) the ball must achieve backcourt status
4) that same team must be first to touch the ball after it has been in the backcourt

Ya' know - now that I think about it - there's actually a redundancy to criteria 3 and 4. If number 4 says the touch must come after the ball has been in the backcourt, there's really no need for number 3, because number 4 requires the ball to have achieved backcourt status. What do you guys think?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Let me throw this into the mix. Say team A had control and they are in their frontcourt when A1 passes to A2. The ball deflects off A2 into their backcourt. A1 races after it and touches it in the backcourt at exactly the same time B1 touches it. It is a violation on team A? It's the same principle as the other situation in this thread. It comes down to this - does a simultaneous touching of the ball by a member of each team also count as an individual touching by each player? If yes, then we have a violation in both cases. If no, then no violation in either case.

I guess it is dependent on how you define "first to touch". Can two players each touch a ball "first"? If I touch the ball at exactly the same time as you, did I touch it "first"? To me, "first" means "before anyone else", not "at the same time as someone else". If we touch at the same time, then no one was "first". To be "first" at doing something, you have to do it before anyone else does it. To be "last" at something, everyone else has to have done it before you did. I don't have violations in either case.

Of course, I could be wrong. I was wrong once before - I think it was in 1970.

Or, to do something first could mean to do something with no one else before having done so before....which allows for ties for first.

I maintain that at least one person has to have been the last to touch it and be the first to touch it....but it oculd be more than one person in the case of simultaneous touching.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I maintain that at least one person has to have been the last to touch it and be the first to touch it....but it could be more than one person in the case of simultaneous touching.

Are we still talking about basketball?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Are we still talking about basketball?

I was thinking the same thing. Hopefully nobody will post images. The moderators would really have to act fast to delete those.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Are we still talking about basketball?

Sounds like Camron is describing his recent trip to the Playboy Mansion in Los Angeles.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Camron, I am sorry for encouraging Mark like this but what do you expect from a couple of old codgers like us.