jump stop...travelling call???

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The point is that when someone asks a question about a jump stop, the correct answer often depends on their definition of jump stop.

That can be a problem. When people can simply make up definitions to suit themselves, it can only cause confusion and rule myths for everyone else.

Panther's example is certainly a legal move, but it's not a jump stop. While the NFHS doesn't have a definition, the NCAA does, and I believe that's one we should all adopt. While I've never heard of any confusion over "jump stop," it may not be a bad idea to get that term into Rule 4.

In the end, it's all about being on the same page.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

That can be a problem. When people can simply make up definitions to suit themselves, it can only cause confusion and rule myths for everyone else.

Panther's example is certainly a legal move, but it's not a jump stop. While the NFHS doesn't have a definition, the NCAA does, and I believe that's one we should all adopt. While I've never heard of any confusion over "jump stop," it may not be a bad idea to get that term into Rule 4.

In the end, it's all about being on the same page.

Do you have something that gives Panther's move a name?

We just have to accept that, sometimes, there will be terminology in use that doesn't precisely match the book. This term is so widely used to describe both moves that there is no point in arguing that one is not a jump stop....they both are.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Do you have something that gives Panther's move a name?

It is simply the legal establishment and subsequent legal movement of a pivot foot. It is not a jump stop. The original poster posed the question of is it legal to take a step after a jump stop. The answer is unequivocally no for 4 of the major rules codes (NFHS, NCAA, NBA and FIBA). The WNBA rules explicitly allow it.

As bainsey alluded to, this discussion points to the importance of using definitions as provided by the rules bodies rather than as commonly assumed by coaches and others.

[CallMeMrRef]

When training on the legal pivot movements around a jump stop, I refer to the play where the player catches the ball in the air (catches on a pass, rebound, or ends dribble) lands on one foot and then alights to 2 feet simultaneously as a "HOP STOP". This is a subset of all Jump stops - difference being when control of the ball is established before landing on (alighting off) 1 foot or after landing on one foot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

As bainsey alluded to, this discussion points to the importance of using definitions as provided by the rules bodies rather than as commonly assumed by coaches and others.

Now you got the idea. Forget about "jump stops" or "hop steps"(whateverthehell they are), etc. completely and just call "traveling".

T-R-A-V-E-L-I-N-G!!

That way we won't have stoopid 2-page discusions like these that just confuse newer officials.

[Judtech]

I don't know about newer officials but I know there were plenty of officials scratching their heads at the NCAA preseason meetings.
To me the key take away point is when the pivot foot is established. If you get that, it makes the play somewhat easier. It is a tough move to describe, it is a sort of "have to see it" play.
As a federal judge and a congressman were famously quoted "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it" (paraphrased, sorry Mr Flint)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Judtech

As a federal judge and a congressman were famously quoted "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it."

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description (hard-core pornography); and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture (The Lovers) involved in this case is not that." (Justice Potter Stewart, regarding obscenity)

I'm definitely not going to post an image here.

[Judtech]

I'm glad SOMEONE picked that up.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by wanja

It is simply the legal establishment and subsequent legal movement of a pivot foot. It is not a jump stop.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Two counterpoints here:

First, it's not a jump stop, for aformentioned reasons here.

Second, we have enough difficulty battling rule myths and misconceptions out there.

Looks like it is a jump stop...take a look at Nevada's post just above where he cites the NCAA rule. It does indeed define BOTH moves as a "jump stop".

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

This term is so widely used to describe both moves that there is no point in arguing that one is not a jump stop....they both are.

Two counterpoints here:

First, it's not a jump stop, for aformentioned reasons here.

Second, we have enough difficulty battling rule myths and misconceptions out there. These myths and general ignorance are, often times, the basis for misunderstandings about our work and rulings. We don't need to add "jump stop" to the list of misunderstood terms, when we already have so many other with which to deal.

You don't to argue what the correct term is. Simply state it. If they don't like it, you're not the one starting the argument.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Two counterpoints here:

First, it's not a jump stop, for aformentioned reasons here.

Second, we have enough difficulty battling rule myths and misconceptions out there. These myths and general ignorance are, often times, the basis for misunderstandings about our work and rulings. We don't need to add "jump stop" to the list of misunderstood terms, when we already have so many other with which to deal.

You don't to argue what the correct term is. Simply state it. If they don't like it, you're not the one starting the argument.

Or one could simply adhere to the definitions given in the NCAA rules book!

Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving
or dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands
simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
b. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot
and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on
the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both
feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot
can be established as the pivot foot).

[wanja]

Jump stop definition.

What part of jump off one foot and land on 2 is unclear?

Do see the NCAA rule below. The "Did you see that jump stop?" article in the current issue of Referee magazine also restates the jump stop definition emphasizing jump off one font and land on two as follows:

A player may catch the ball while airborne, land on one foot and then jump to land on both feet simultaneously. or may catch the ball while on one foot and then jump to two simultaneously. The key is from one foot alone to two feet together. Any other variation is traveling.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving
or dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
b. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).[/QUOTE]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

Do see the NCAA rule below. The "Did you see that jump stop?" article in the current issue of Referee magazine also restates the jump stop definition emphasizing jump off one font and land on two as follows:

[I]A player may catch the ball while airborne, land on one foot and then jump to land on both feet simultaneously. or may catch the ball while on one foot and then jump to two simultaneously. The key is from one foot alone to two feet together. Any other variation is traveling.

And that statement highlighted in red is complete and utter nonsense, as well as being misleading. There IS another variation that isn't traveling. It very conveniently leaves out the third legal alternative---->an airborne player landing on one foot followed by the other. In that case, the first foot to land is the pivot foot and it sureashell is NOT traveling.

In case anybody's wondering, that's NCAA rule 4-70--3(a)2. It's exactly the same as NFHS rule 4-43-2(a). The traveling rules haven't changed in the last 50 years.

Again, all this nonsense is doing is just confusing the hell outa everybody imho. Forget about the terminology of stoopid jump stops and just learn the traveling rules. It's that freaking simple. And if any coach ever questions a traveling call, your reply is just as simple...."Coach, your player established their pivot foot after landing. Then your player lifted that pivot foot and brought it back down again while still holding the ball. That's traveling." And that's also it! End of conversation, turn back to coach, put ball back into play, Adios, amigos!

Lah me....paralysis through analysis again.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And that statement highlighted in red is complete and utter nonsense, as well as being misleading. There IS another variation that isn't traveling. It very conveniently leaves out the third legal alternative---->an airborne player landing on one foot followed by the other. In that case, the first foot to land is the pivot foot and it sure as hell is NOT traveling.

Of course what you described is not traveling. That one line of the article should have been better written and the writer should have left if it out and avoided a distraction.

The point is that a jump stop involves jumping off of one foot and landing on two. Starting with you Jurassic, does anyone disagree with this and if so how do you reconcile it with the NCAA rule definition?

A secondary question is does anyone, starting with you Jurassic, disagree that after a jump stop, no pivot foot is available?

Please answer the questions.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by wanja

NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

And there's the rules citation to back up Bob.

And that's exactly why this discussion is causing so damn much confusion. You've got two completely different and disparate actions rules-wise, with both being classified as "jump stops".