Happened to me last year

[Ref in PA]

Last year, I was the trail official working two man in a game that was near half-time when this play occurred in this order:

A1 was driving to the basket for a layup, guarded by B1. A1 starts the motion to shoot the ball.
B1 hacks A1.
Lead official blows whistle and indicates a foul.
A1 continues motion toward shot.
Horn blows - indicating the quarter is over.
A1 releases ball.
Ball goes through the hoop.

The whistle was clearly before the horn. The horn was clearly before the shot release. What is the correct call?


What we did is this:

Called foul on B1.
Did not count basket (because release was after the horn).
Cleared lane and put A1 on the line to shoot 2.

[ChuckElias]

You nailed it. Way to think it through

Chuck

[Camron Rust]

As Chuck said, you nailed it. This is true becasue of the lag rule in high school rules. The clock operator, who has 1 second to get it stopped after a whistle, made no error. Time properly expired.

If this were an NCAA or NBA game, the basket would count since the clock would/should have stopped at the same time as the whistle. The horn would have never sounded. If it did, the refs would put time back on the clock, negating the implications of the horn/time expiring.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Sep 12th, 2002 at 11:57 AM]

[Oz Referee]

In this sitch FIBA counts the basket as there is no lag rule like US high school.

Just another difference.....

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Count the basket!!! Time didn't expire. The clock said it did only because the clock keeper failed to stop it properly. The horn was erroneous so it is ignored.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Devon, the horn sounded in error. It wasn't supposed to sound. It should not have sounded. Understand? Therefore, if the horn sounded in error, the horn never sounded. You have to count the basket. There's no way to make it any simplier than that.

BTW, have you noticed that no one is agreeing with you. That alone should tell you that you're wrong.

All from a previous thread started by Mark Dexter on 1/6/02 titled "Last second shot and foul". I argued that the horn sounding gives the official 'definite knowledge' and reason to not count the basket, put time back on the clock according to the rules of lag time, and shoot the free throws.




[Edited by devdog69 on Sep 12th, 2002 at 01:31 PM]

[PAULK1]

Take a look at 5.6.3 C and then look at 5.10.1 comment
in the fed case book these explain the foul and expiration of time and lag or reation time.

[devdog69]

I notice you just let this one slip by, Mr. Crowfeeder.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by devdog69
I notice you just let this one slip by, Mr. Crowfeeder.

LOL! I'm wiping "adult beverage" off my screen right now!

[Spaman_29]

I want to really think and discuss the lag rule in high school. Yes I undertand the reason behind the rule, but also I want to look at why is it still written the same way. We allow a full second for the timer to stop the clock after each whistle. Add that up over a game time and you could have a minute, maybe a bit much, of time that expires off of the clock without play occuring. Maybe there are some really slow timers out there who really need to rethink their advocation of being a timer and move on with life. But for the most part I have had exceptional timers at the varsity level and they are really quick to stop the time. I have trained myself to look at the clock at every single whistle to make sure of proper start and stop times. If at the end of the game I feel that it is too loud for the timer to hear and I blew the whistle I would correct the time to what I saw on the clock. I have never used the 1 second lag rule to correct a timing mistake, nor do I think that it would be expected by the coaches in the area I work. They would want the time that is on the clock when the whistle blew. Should this rule be changed? I think so.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Spaman_29
I want to really think and discuss the lag rule in high school. Yes I undertand the reason behind the rule, but also I want to look at why is it still written the same way. We allow a full second for the timer to stop the clock after each whistle. Add that up over a game time and you could have a minute, maybe a bit much, of time that expires off of the clock without play occuring. Maybe there are some really slow timers out there who really need to rethink their advocation of being a timer and move on with life. But for the most part I have had exceptional timers at the varsity level and they are really quick to stop the time. I have trained myself to look at the clock at every single whistle to make sure of proper start and stop times. If at the end of the game I feel that it is too loud for the timer to hear and I blew the whistle I would correct the time to what I saw on the clock. I have never used the 1 second lag rule to correct a timing mistake, nor do I think that it would be expected by the coaches in the area I work. They would want the time that is on the clock when the whistle blew. Should this rule be changed? I think so.

As someone who has been a timer at all levels over the past few years, I'd like to comment on this.

First, I agree - lag time is stupid. The best timers stop within 1-2/10ths of a second, and even the worst timers probably stop in less than 1 full second. (It is the slower timers for whom you really need the lag time rule.)

Second, I don't know exactly why the lag time rule came into effect (maybe one of our friends who has all of the rulebooks since Naismith's time *cough*De Nucci*cough* could provide us with the rulebook reasoning). My guess (something which has been tossed around here before) is that it came about because of clocks that don't display 1/10th's of a second. In some of these clocks, if the whistle blows at 10.1 and the clock stops at 9.9, the clock may display 9, and resetting the clock to 10 may put it at 10.0 or 10.9 - however it works, it's a pretty poor rule for clocks which do display 1/10th's of a second.

That said, the rule needs to be enforced as written!! There are lots of rules that coaches don't like, but it doesn't mean we change them mid-game. The lag time rule may be unfair to one team, but misapplying the rule is unfair to both teams.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Spaman_29
If at the end of the game I feel that it is too loud for the timer to hear and I blew the whistle I would correct the time to what I saw on the clock.

Assuming more than 1 second runs off between the time you blow the whistle and the clock eventually gets stopped, that's the correct ruling.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Assuming more than 1 second runs off between the time you blow the whistle and the clock eventually gets stopped, that's the correct ruling.

Uh, not quite.

If you whistle, pause (assumed to be 1 second), then look, you reset to the time that you see.

If you look at the clock as you whistle, you have to allow 1 second to elapse to which to reset the clock.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter


Uh, not quite.

If you whistle, pause (assumed to be 1 second), then look, you reset to the time that you see.

If you look at the clock as you whistle, you have to allow 1 second to elapse to which to reset the clock.

Yes, quite.

Play: You look at the clock as you whistle and it says :05. (A) The timer stops the clock at :04, or (B) the timer does not stop the clock and the horn sounds.

Ruling: (A) leave the clock at :04 for the lag time. (B)Reset the clock to :05. The timer did not react within the lag time.

See 5.10.1D; note that it's been revised this (2002-2003) year.

[Mark Dexter]

Thanks for pointing that out, Bob.

Now the rationale for the rule is even odder - why not reset to five in the first situation, too?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Thanks for pointing that out, Bob.

Now the rationale for the rule is even odder - why not reset to five in the first situation, too?

Because it's not an "obvious timing error" (that's the NFHS explanation).