Double whistle - sitch

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

BTW, dirty dan's dastardly deed didn't detract from the dog's daily dance with life. Just made it easier to deal with [/B][/QUOTE]Dog doesn't dare to dance a duet,though,does the dog?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

BTW, dirty dan's dastardly deed didn't detract from the dog's daily dance with life. Just made it easier to deal with

Dog doesn't dare to dance a duet,though,does the dog? [/B][/QUOTE]

A deed demanding desire, which the Doc done deflated when he did the (ahem) deboning. Ya dig?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
But maybe you're asking if B1 obtained legal guarding
position - both feet on the floor, torso facing, etc - even
though she was straddling A1's leg. I would say it depends
on who got there first. But legal guarding position is
useful for making calls involving screens or torso to torso
contact. I'm not so sure it applies here, but I'm open to
being convinced otherwise.

I'm saying that even straddling A1's leg B1 has legal guarding position, as long as B1 stops short of contact. At least, this is the position I thought we all agreed on a few months ago -- That A1's owned space was above and below the hips, and if the leg was extended out of that space, then the defender could straddle the leg.

I'm not even going to try the alliteration thing. Remember, I've got a life!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker


I'm saying that even straddling A1's leg B1 has legal guarding position, as long as B1 stops short of contact. At least, this is the position I thought we all agreed on a few months ago -- That A1's owned space was above and below the hips, and if the leg was extended out of that space, then the defender could straddle the leg.

I'm not even going to try the alliteration thing. Remember, I've got a life!

Here's the play again:

A1 in her front court picked up her dribble.
B1 is 12" away and pressuring with hands vertical.
A1 pivots away from B1 with a long step which puts her at an extended angle away from B1.
B1 steps over the pivot foot and leg of A1 while continuing pressure. No contact yet.
B1 takes another 1/2 step toward A1 and causes contact and A1 immediately stands into B1 and clears B1 with an elbow.

3 things can happen here:

Because B1 took a 1/2 step into A1 & caused contact the
foul in this case has to be on B1 because B1 lost LGP when she stepped forward. We agree so far, I think.

If there had not been contact then the foul's on A1 due to
the elbow. Legal guarding position is not a factor on the
elbow IMO but B1 does obtain LGP even after the step
because she didn't cause contact when moving in. So far
it's easy, no?

Now, if instead of the elbow A1 had stepped back into B1
and caused torso-to-torso contact I could not have a block
on B1 because she can get as close to A1 as possible
without contact once she has LGP, and IMO she LGP.

So I guess the answer to your question is yes, B1 has
obtained LGP straddling A1's leg assuming there's no contact.

And I'm all alliterated out, now if only I oculd get a life too!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

A deed demanding desire, which the Doc done deflated when he did the (ahem) deboning. Ya dig? [/B][/QUOTE]Doc did deed so that dog doesn't do deed.I dig!

Still not fair!

[walter]

Mick, the way I read it you did not give the block signal at the time. Your partner did give the player control signal. The whistles were simultaneous. If that's the case, I think you did the right thing for this situation. Got together, partner had signallled player control, play on. If neither signalled at the time then you could've gone either way based on your discussion. If both signal, double foul. That would have been your only choice. Remember the Iowa State NCAA tournament a couple of years back. A double whistle for the ages!!! The officials were right that night even though they didn't work another game after that. The signal at the time of a double whistle could kill ya!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

A deed demanding desire, which the Doc done deflated when he did the (ahem) deboning. Ya dig?

Doc did deed so that dog doesn't do deed.I dig!

Still not fair! [/B][/QUOTE]

Dude!

[mick]

Originally posted by walter
Mick, the way I read it you did not give the block signal at the time. Your partner did give the player control signal. The whistles were simultaneous. If that's the case, I think you did the right thing for this situation. Got together, partner had signallled player control, play on. If neither signalled at the time then you could've gone either way based on your discussion. If both signal, double foul. That would have been your only choice. Remember the Iowa State NCAA tournament a couple of years back. A double whistle for the ages!!! The officials were right that night even though they didn't work another game after that. The signal at the time of a double whistle could kill ya!

Yeah, Walter,
The double whistle can kill.
This partner and I often double-whistle over the past several years and this is the first time, that I remember, one of us signaled without waiting.
Because I saw both acts, and because I was calling the first act, yes, we would have favored the other team had we both waited.
Ofttimes, we have a foul-then-violation, or a violation-then-foul, which is another double-whistle sitch in which an easy decision is made when one of us sees both actions.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

Dude! [/B][/QUOTE]Poor dude is now a dudette,doofus!

I quit,before my IQ starts to sink into single digits...and I become a Bosox fan!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 12th, 2002 at 02:32 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by walter
Remember the Iowa State NCAA tournament a couple of years back. A double whistle for the ages!!! The officials were right that night even though they didn't work another game after that. The signal at the time of a double whistle could kill ya!

I don't remember the play you're talking about. Would you refresh my memory?

Chuck

[PAULK1]

It is a bad situation when you have double whistles and one gives the preliminary too soon. If your partner had not gone over to you and you just dropped I would see no problem
since this was his primary. But since he did come over to ask what you had there is already an element of indecision,
you may want to just get the play right. I know alot of other considerations could go into this, like level of play or score (was this a blowout). It already looks bad when you have to come together so you might as well leave with
the right call.

[mick]

Originally posted by PAULK1
It is a bad situation when you have double whistles and one gives the preliminary too soon. If your partner had not gone over to you and you just dropped I would see no problem
since this was his primary. But since he did come over to ask what you had there is already an element of indecision,
you may want to just get the play right. I know alot of other considerations could go into this, like level of play or score (was this a blowout). It already looks bad when you have to come together so you might as well leave with
the right call.

PAULK1,
Although I do not disagree with your words, I felt that by visibly agreeing with my partner that it "appeared" we were in agreement.
Whether I was right or wrong, a reversal of the preliminary signal, I felt, could have become ugly and all that comes with it. Then, would a reversal improve, or worsen, the game from that point? Dunno.
mick

---

Brain cramps hurt more than bottles.

[crew]

mick from what you posted i would call an offensive foul. just because b1 contacted a1 does not mean it is a foul. if b1 had pushed a1 or dislodged her and made her travel, then a foul should be called on b1. to me its a1's fault for stepping back.....b1 did what was natural and just contacted her. a1 put herself at a disadvantage.
now to the part where you both had whistles and different signals. this is not like a run over play where it is difference of opinion. this is a timing play. if you came to your partner and said the block or pushed occurred before the clear out then that is a viable option. if the clearout is super obvious then you should probly go with the offensive foul. nobody is gonna buy block when a1 obviously creates space. just my read on the play. i am trying to imagine it exactly as you wrote it but then imaginations differ as well as opinions.

[walter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I don't remember the play you're talking about. Would you refresh my memory?

Chuck

Very late in the game, Iowa State on defense when (I think they were playing Michigan State) an opposing player drives the lane from Center side and there's a crash in the paint. Lead comes out hard banging his fists against his hips while the Center is signalling the other way due to player control. Iowa State down a couple of points and Coach believes they are about to get the ball. Officials get together, go with double foul call and go to arrow which gives Michigan State the ball. Iowa State coach goes bananas and ends up getting double T'd and tossed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by walter

Very late in the game, Iowa State on defense when (I think they were playing Michigan State) an opposing player drives the lane from Center side and there's a crash in the paint. Lead comes out hard banging his fists against his hips while the Center is signalling the other way due to player control. Iowa State down a couple of points and Coach believes they are about to get the ball. Officials get together, go with double foul call and go to arrow which gives Michigan State the ball. Iowa State coach goes bananas and ends up getting double T'd and tossed.

Which is a great reason to bring back the "jump ball". While early in the game a jump ball possession is not as meaningful, a last minute jump ball can be critical to the outcome. With the actual jump, neither side would be too bent out of shape. They may not like it but both teams still have shot at getting the ball.