Annual NF rule change thread

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I even used it in college if I was near our star player and knew he was in foul trouble up went the hand!!! It worked most of the time!

I call boolsh!t! The mechanic used at that time was to bird-dog until the hand went up. We also had to tell the player and the player then had 5 seconds to raise their hand. So no, trying sumthin' like that never worked most of the time or even some of the time. Unless you're talking about college intramurals with pick-up officials.

[Amesman]

In high school, our coach had the best FT shooter on the team toe the line whenever possible after a nearby teammate was fouled. Happened a handful of times. Maybe less. Was easy enough to play off with confusion if ever questioned by a man with a whistle. Was corrected maybe 25% of the time.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Amesman

In high school, our coach had the best FT shooter on the team toe the line whenever possible after a nearby teammate was fouled. Happened a handful of times. Maybe less. Was easy enough to play off with confusion if ever questioned by a man with a whistle. Was corrected maybe 25% of the time.

So, as an official, this is probably a POE for you. Know the shooter.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Amesman

In high school, our coach had the best FT shooter on the team toe the line whenever possible after a nearby teammate was fouled. Happened a handful of times. Maybe less. Was easy enough to play off with confusion if ever questioned by a man with a whistle. Was corrected maybe 25% of the time.

I can neither confirm nor deny any personal involvment in a similar situation as a certain poster would be more likely to believe you then me!! I can also not state with any certainty that it also helps your scoring average!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I can neither confirm nor deny any personal involvment in a similar situation as a certain poster would be more likely to believe you then me!! I can also not state with any certainty that it also helps your scoring average!!

When I played I did this once; I got away with it. It was not at the direction of our coach, however.

Frankly, while it may be a good thing to do, strategically; I find it to be poor coaching. In order to agree with me, though, you'll have to think coaching at the amateur level is about more than winning games.

[Judtech]

SNAQ I would lOVE to agree with you but that may hurt your credibility on this board. So in THAT vein, I can't believe you would have such a nieve, innocent and quite frankly eggregiously out of touch expectation of athletics at the amateur level

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

SNAQ I would lOVE to agree with you but that may hurt your credibility on this board. So in THAT vein, I can't believe you would have such a nieve, innocent and quite frankly eggregiously out of touch expectation of athletics at the amateur level

My credibility level here is set in stone at this point, I think. What that level is, I have no idea.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I call boolsh!t! The mechanic used at that time was to bird-dog until the hand went up. We also had to tell the player and the player then had 5 seconds to raise their hand. So no, trying sumthin' like that never worked most of the time or even some of the time. Unless you're talking about college intramurals with pick-up officials.

No it was real live intercollegiate athletics.(Although I did play intramural soccer, flag football, frisbee golf and softball) Some of the games were even on that new fangled television invention. If there was a cluster in the lane and the whistle blew, up went my hand. I knew I had fouls to give and I knew my role on the team. It is also basic human nature to take the path of least resistance. Official blows whistle on a foul, sees a hand go up, why NOT give it to that guy he was near the play.
While I am sure you are the only official who never lost a players number on a foul, there are those out there who ARE fallible and as a player I more than certainly took advantage of it. And if the opposing coach picked up on it, that just made it more fun.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

No it was real live intercollegiate athletics.(Although I did play intramural soccer, flag football, frisbee golf and softball) Some of the games were even on that new fangled television invention. If there was a cluster in the lane and the whistle blew, up went my hand. I knew I had fouls to give and I knew my role on the team. It is also basic human nature to take the path of least resistance. Official blows whistle on a foul, sees a hand go up, why NOT give it to that guy he was near the play.
While I am sure you are the only official who never lost a players number on a foul, there are those out there who ARE fallible and as a player I more than certainly took advantage of it. And if the opposing coach picked up on it, that just made it more fun.

Do you even know what a "birddog" is? Using the mechanics that we had to use when that rule was in effect, it was impossible for the wrong player to be charged with a foul. We had to run up to within 5 feet of the player who fouled and then point at the player's waist until he raised his arm. If he didn't raise his arm straight up within 5 seconds, we were supposed to call a "T".

And that rule was long gone before the Regan years when you said that you played.

Boolsh!t!

[Adam]

JR, I have to say, I played during the Reagan and Bush (41) years, and I would do it also. I can't say how often it worked, and I can remember times it didn't work; but I also remember it worked occasionally. When I played, we still raised our hands out of respect when called for a foul. Also, I can't confirm nor deny that there may have been officials in my small town enforcing a rule that no longer existed.

[Judtech]

JR I stand corrected, I don't remember any official running up and pointing right at a player. So my definition of Birddog may be incorrect. I was thinking it was just pointing in the general direction.
We were taught since high school to raise our hands when we fouled, say thank you to the referee's when they handed us the ball, always retrieve balls that went astray, and hand the ball to the official during TO's fouls etc. As far as I know it was a team rule in HS (not a State rule) and in college I know it wasn't a rule, but I kept that habit, and the others, throughout college.
So I am not really sure what you are objecting too. Are you calling BS on the fact that I raised my hand when fouled, or when another player near me fouled? Or are you calling BS on the fact that I was successful in convincing the officials I WAS to fouling player by raising my hand?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

JR I stand corrected, I don't remember any official running up and pointing right at a player. So my definition of Birddog may be incorrect. I was thinking it was just pointing in the general direction.
We were taught since high school to raise our hands when we fouled, say thank you to the referee's when they handed us the ball, always retrieve balls that went astray, and hand the ball to the official during TO's fouls etc. As far as I know it was a team rule in HS (not a State rule) and in college I know it wasn't a rule, but I kept that habit, and the others, throughout college.
So I am not really sure what you are objecting too. Are you calling BS on the fact that I raised my hand when fouled, or when another player near me fouled? Or are you calling BS on the fact that I was successful in convincing the officials I WAS to fouling player by raising my hand?

I have no doubt that you may have occasionally gotten away with taking a foul for a teammate by raising your hand and raising a l'il confusion at the same time. A player can still do that today with an inattentive official. But you couldn't have done it when that stoopid rule that IndianaRef(jokingly, thank God) suggested be resurrected was in place. It was an absolutely terrible rule to administer, which is why it disappeared almost as quickly as it was instituted.

That was my point. Your getting away with taking a foul for a teammate had absolutely nothing to do with that particular old rule being discussed. When that stoopid rule was in place, it was almost impossible for any player to take a foul for a teammate. That was maybe the only good thing about it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

JR, I have to say, I played during the Reagan and Bush (41) years, and I would do it also. I can't say how often it worked, and I can remember times it didn't work; but I also remember it worked occasionally. When I played, we still raised our hands out of respect when called for a foul. Also, I can't confirm nor deny that there may have been officials in my small town enforcing a rule that no longer existed.

And you can do it today and it might work also. But it wouldn't and didn't work when the mandatory raising-the-hand rule was in effect because every single foul was bird-dogged. That's when bird-dogging started as a mechanic. The mechanics issued stated that we had to go right up to every single player that we called a foul on before they raised a hand, point at them and hold that point until they raised their hand. We were pointing and going to the player as we called the foul, not after we called the foul. That's why another player raising their hand wouldn't come into play.

We may have called a foul on the wrong player occasionally, but if we did it had absolutely nothing to do with any other player raising their hand. It was just a mistake.

[Adam]

I don't know, JR, I'll bet there were are some officials who, when faced with the a foul committed in a crowd, would gladly assign it to the player who attempted to own up to it rather than hit the guy who already had 4.

And while the rule may have been to ask the player after you bird dogged him, we never waited to be asked; especially in this situation. The whole idea was to take the foul, so waiting until the official actually pointed to the other guy would be pointless.

I'm not saying it was rampant or even common; but I find it highly plausible. Now, whether this could happen at the collegiate level (even NAIA) is another debate entirely; but I wouldn't be surprised if the "keep the star in the game" mentality exists in some small college officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And while the rule may have been to ask the player after you bird dogged him, we never waited to be asked; especially in this situation. The whole idea was to take the foul, so waiting until the official actually pointed to the other guy would be pointless.

And the old mechanic given to us was to start pointing at the fouler AS we blew the whistle, and then continue pointing ar him as we ran to that player. As a player, you wouldn't even know a foul was being called on your teammate until AFTER the bird-dogging mechanic was in process on your teammate. If you tried to raise your hand and take the foul for somebody else at that time, you'd either be laughed at or warned to cut that crap out.

And note that we also never asked the player anything. We just bird-dogged and told the player that he/she committed the foul. There was no confusion.

Of course, that's unless you were in the habit of raising your hand immediately every single time you heard a whistle...which somehow I doubt.