Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 659810)

Forget that he was punched by #23 Black. Now what would you call for #10 White shoving the opponent as he did?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 659812)

That rules tells us that a non-fighting act, such as taunting, can turn into an act of fighting and warrant a flagrant technical foul, IF THE OPPONENT RETALIATES BY FIGHTING. It does not work in the reverse order.

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 659814)

No...but he did...

Forget white #10 shoved black #23 in the torso... lets say he shoved him like that in the head/face.... dumping white #10 now?

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs (Post 659809)

I think the first one has got to be flagrant. It was way, way past anything related to basketball.

As far as all the aftermath, you do the best you can to keep track of who's where, and try to remember the rules.

I also think that W kid chest-bumping the spectator, and doing some inciting before that was flagrant. And that crowd cheering for whatever was also way scary. I'd rather see them hurling invective and screaming angrily than cheering for their opponents being bad. That really bugs me.

Originally Posted by representing (Post 659815)

Ok, gotcha now. Thanks for the clarifying that for me. So then yes, I would DQ both of them. He did retaliate by pushing, which lead to an even bigger fight.

I honestly think after that punch, if the kid didn't push back, this whole thing wouldn't have started. Doesn't look like anything was brewing up until that push after the punch happened.

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 659814)

No...but he did...

Forget white #10 shoved black #23 in the torso... lets say he shoved him like that in the head/face.... dumping white #10 now?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 659820)

My point is judge each action on it's own merit. The only basis in the rules for doing otherwise is the specific provision in 4-18-2. My advice to not get caught up in the emotion of the situation.

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 659822)

I agree... and do so.

I'm just saying a kid punched another kid, then that kid shoved/pushed that kid.

I'd be surprised if the Fed said the shoving/pushing wasn't flagrant...but I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 659822)

I agree... and do so.

I'm just saying a kid punched another kid, then that kid shoved/pushed that kid.

I'd be surprised if the Fed said the shoving/pushing wasn't flagrant...but I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by representing (Post 659777)

10-4-5

Coach wasn't beckoned on from what i can see in the video. He get's a Techincal foul.

Player left bench during a fight, all of them at DQ'd regardless. For each offender that gets involved with a fight, that's an additional Technical. All the player that left the bench, I don't think they got involved with fighting, but only came on to calm things down. Only one T is given to bench, which is also an Indirect to the coach. Coach now has one T on himself and an indirect from bench.

Since white doesn't seem to have anyone leaving bench, you shoot two FTs only and ball is at POI.

Did I read this right accordingly to the rulebook? I hope you guys are proud of me for actually opening up a rulebook now before running my mouth haha.

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 659801)

I'm not sure I even give him a technical foul for the shove. It was a fairly mild reaction for getting punched in the face.

OK, I probably would, but it certainly wouldn't be flagrant.

Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 659852)

Coach was beckoned...trust me...

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 659768)

My take would be:
A. Flagrant personal foul on #23 Black for the two-handed shove to the back of the opponent's head (White #5). I believe this action warrants more than an intentional personal foul.
B. Flagrant T to #23 Black for striking opponent in the face during the dead ball period. This gets reported as fighting.
C. Retaliation shove by White #10 warrants a technical foul. I don't believe that it has to be considered fighting. This would form a double techinical foul with B.
D. For Black #23, #14, #12, #21, and #20 were players in the game at the time. #22, #34, #15, #10, a couple of coaches, and a team member in a warm-up shirt which covers his number, come off the bench. I don't see any of them actually fight.
E. <font color = red>The penalties for D is that all from the bench are DQ'd, ONE indirect to the HC</font>, and TWO FTs to the opponent.
F. Summary: Black #23 is DQ'd, along with all non-players listed in D. White #5 shoots 2 FTs (A). No FTs for double T (B and C). Anyone from White shoots 2 FTs (D). White's ball at the division line opposite the table.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 659856)

Agree with a regular "T", at most. The kid was defending himself. He pushed an opponent away who had just nailed him; he didn't swing back. What was he supposed to do? Stand there and let the kid take another shot?