what would you do?

[crew]

nc2a or fed situation.
player a1 goes to the basket out of control and throws up a prayer for a shot. lands and falls to the floor awkwardly on his arm. b1 secures the ball and slowly dribbles the ball to the front court as a1 stands up ands walks to his bench obviously injured and takes hisself out of the game while the ball is in play.


me personally, i suspended play because there was no fast break. the critiquer on the court chewed my butt after the game for suspending play. i was totally in awe and did not have a clue of what else should be done. he said that if he is able to walk off the court that as an official we should wait for that team to gain possession to to suspend play.

i thought to myself isnt it illegal to play with 4 players when you have 5 legal players availble and about ten other possiblr controversial things that could happen.

i just thought to myself this is a neat easy and everyone buys what is happening. oh well.

are you guys thinking any thing else should be done? maybe i was in tunnel vision.

[Self]

First is it legal? Technically it is not legal. Leaving the court during live ball is a technical. Would I call it in this situation, probably not.

Now as far as stopping play. I would probably have to see the play to say for sure. But from reading it, I would have probably waited for A to regain possession. If A left the court unaided then his team is going to have to play defense without him.

I say this but without being there having the feel of the game, seeing the player walk off, knowing the game situation. I possibly would have stopped it also immedialty if I felt the situation warrented it.

[BktBallRef]

I probably would have done the same thing you did. However, I can see the camp counselor's point. If he's not in danger of being more seriously injured and he's able to get up and move about, wait until his team has the ball

[mick]

Originally posted by crew
nc2a or fed situation.
player a1 goes to the basket out of control and throws up a prayer for a shot. lands and falls to the floor awkwardly on his arm. b1 secures the ball and slowly dribbles the ball to the front court as a1 stands up ands walks to his bench obviously injured and takes hisself out of the game while the ball is in play.


me personally, i suspended play because there was no fast break. the critiquer on the court chewed my butt after the game for suspending play. i was totally in awe and did not have a clue of what else should be done. he said that if he is able to walk off the court that as an official we should wait for that team to gain possession to to suspend play.

i thought to myself isnt it illegal to play with 4 players when you have 5 legal players availble and about ten other possiblr controversial things that could happen.

i just thought to myself this is a neat easy and everyone buys what is happening. oh well.

are you guys thinking any thing else should be done? maybe i was in tunnel vision.

crew,
With the player leaving the court on his own accord, I see no reason to halt play.
There has been past discussion here regarding the officials actions during this time.
I subscribe to having the Trail official lag behind the new possession to make it apparent that the injury was "noted".
Then, on the next change of possession, kill the ball.
mick

[Ref in PA]

If I was the trail, I would swing near the bench on my way up the court. I would do my best to see if the arm was broken from my distance. If I felt the arm had any chance of being broken, I would blow the whistle and stop play. No way am I going to let play go on if there is a chance of a broken bone. If not, I would urge the coach/player to get back on the court until there is a stop in play as I went by. The urging might include a phrase "It is a technical foul to leave the court during play."

Yes, you could call a technical - and be within the letter of the rules, but I feel that would be poor game management if that was done without any effort to get the player back on the court. If the evaluator wants to chew me out for stopping play, I am willing to take the heat in that case because I know I made the right decision.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Am I missing something here. A1 is injured and Team B is not making any play toward the basket. The fact the A1 walked to his bench is not germain to the play. A1 was injured. The play met the criteria for the game to be stopped by the game officials. And as far as the camp counselor who chewed your tuckus for stopping the game tell him to contact me so I can chew his tuckus for being and idiot.

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Am I missing something here. A1 is injured and Team B is not making any play toward the basket. The fact the A1 walked to his bench is not germain to the play. A1 was injured. The play met the criteria for the game to be stopped by the game officials. And as far as the camp counselor who chewed your tuckus for stopping the game tell him to contact me so I can chew his tuckus for being and idiot.

Thanks for pointing that out, Mark T.
That totally escaped me.
I kicked another one.
mick

[JRutledge]

it is clear that B has the ball and is not trying to fast break. The rules backs this up if you rule or determine that A1 is injured.

This is why we get paid the big bucks, but some might want A to gain possession. But that is not suppored by the rule here.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Am I missing something here. A1 is injured and Team B is not making any play toward the basket. The fact the A1 walked to his bench is not germain to the play. A1 was injured. The play met the criteria for the game to be stopped by the game officials. And as far as the camp counselor who chewed your tuckus for stopping the game tell him to contact me so I can chew his tuckus for being and idiot.

I agree with MTD -- NFHS 5-8-2a NOTE "A play is completed when a team ... withholds the ball from play by ceasing to attempt to score or advance the ball to a scoring position."

The NCAA rule is similar (I think).

*Especially* during camp, err on the side of safety.

[Andy]

Originally posted by crew
nc2a or fed situation.
player a1 goes to the basket out of control and throws up a prayer for a shot. lands and falls to the floor awkwardly on his arm. b1 secures the ball and slowly dribbles the ball to the front court as a1 stands up ands walks to his bench obviously injured and takes hisself out of the game while the ball is in play.

I've always been told to "err on the side of safety". If there is any doubt about the severity of the injury, I'm stopping play no matter what the situation. This is especially true at younger levels like Jr. Hi. At the college level, I would proably be a little more patient in my decision, with a HS game somewhere in between the two.

All that being said, I agree with your actions based on the situation you described. This is a great example of when to use the best "camp" mechanic I ever learned:

Nod your head up and down and say "Yes, sir and thank you for the advice" then go on with your officiating!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick

Thanks for pointing that out, Mark T.
That totally escaped me.
I kicked another one.
mick

I don't know that you kicked this one at all,mick.I think that the evaluator may have been more upset with the actual timing of the whistle,rather than the fact that the whistle was blown.The usual procedure is to(1)evaluate the injury,then(2)blow it dead immediately if the player is definitely seriously injured,or(3)blow it dead unless the other team is in the midst of a scoring effort if there is a chance that it is a serious injury,or(4)delay the whistle until his team had the ball or the scoring chance is over if you feel the injury is not of a serious nature.The time lag for a whistle for #3 is usually a second or so after you evaluate the player and check the play,not the amount of time that it takes for a player to walk off the floor to his bench.If you delay that long,you're probably into #4.I think the evaluator may have been trying to make the point that crew's evaluation may have been correct,but it should have been made quicker and not delayed until the player got off the court.
Note:I realise that #2 is debatable,but if I think that a player is seriously hurt,I'm gonna get someone looking at him asap,no matter where the ball is.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 23rd, 2002 at 12:56 PM]

[JRutledge]

I have heard this argument many times before as it relates to what happens with younger players and kids. Andy and Bob, do you not think that younger kids might act more hurt or cry for example and really not be hurt? I mean how many times have you seen a kid fall down, cry or appear hurt uncontrollably, then appear fine the next oppourtunity they can play? Part of this has to do with seeing the play, but it appears to me that younger kids are not always as hurt as it appears at first glance. Aside from sports, how many times have we seen kids fall and adults think, "that must of hurt" and they bounce back up an play?

Just want your further opinions.

Peace

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I have heard this argument many times before as it relates to what happens with younger players and kids. Andy and Bob, do you not think that younger kids might act more hurt or cry for example and really not be hurt? I mean how many times have you seen a kid fall down, cry or appear hurt uncontrollably, then appear fine the next oppourtunity they can play? Part of this has to do with seeing the play, but it appears to me that younger kids are not always as hurt as it appears at first glance. Aside from sports, how many times have we seen kids fall and adults think, "that must of hurt" and they bounce back up an play?

Just want your further opinions.

Peace

Rut,
Come to think of it, I have passed on that play.
Although it could put us into a liability problem, we can in fact determine guess how hard a kid goes down, and we make the call, or don't make the call, in that split second.
mick

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't know that you kicked this one at all,mick.I think that the evaluator may have been more upset with the actual timing of the whistle,rather than the fact that the whistle was blown.The usual procedure is to(1)evaluate the injury,then(2)blow it dead immediately if the player is definitely seriously injured,or(3)blow it dead unless the other team is in the midst of a scoring effort if there is a chance that it is a serious injury,or(4)delay the whistle until his team had the ball or the scoring chance is over if you feel the injury is not of a serious nature.The time lag for a whistle for #3 is usually a second or so after you evaluate the player and check the play,not the amount of time that it takes for a player to walk off the floor to his bench.If you delay that long,you're probably into #4.I think the evaluator may have been trying to make the point that crew's evaluation may have been correct,but it should have been made quicker and not delayed until the player got off the court.
Note:I realise that #2 is debatable,but if I think that a player is seriously hurt,I'm gonna get someone looking at him asap,no matter where the ball is.

Thanks for the support, JR.
But in the original sitch I'm sticking with my "after thought".
Your Four Points are well taken.
An injury situation can certainly put us officials on that fine line of jeopardy. The question of safe way vs. the fair way, is often left up to our training.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Mick,just want to clarify what I was trying to get at.I agree with MTD,also-but I think that crew's evaluator may have not been upset that crew killed the play,but was upset that he delayed killing the play too long.