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-   -   Should there have been a whistle? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56612-should-there-have-been-whistle.html)

Mark Padgett Thu Jan 21, 2010 02:52pm
The answer to a, b and c is all the same: "Depends on what the spread was". :cool:

Clark Kent Thu Jan 21, 2010 02:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Ref (Post 654105)
I think you and your brother have too much time on your hands.....
LOL....What? That is not something I wanted the reffing community to see!!!

ref2coach Thu Jan 21, 2010 02:54pm
Stop the action at the 8 second mark, when the shoulder is hitting the defenders chest. The C's view is blocked by W23. Trail is blocked by B12 and W3. Neither B41 nor W25 is blocking the Leads view as long as the lead is deep and not closed down. Leads PCF call all the way.

Adam Thu Jan 21, 2010 02:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 654126)
I got it paused right as the contact happens, and I dont think that C was straightlined at the point of contact. At least not to the point as to where he cant get a good enough look on the play to make a PC call. I would like the C to come out and get this one, but the L should have a late/double whistle on this. I can see how the L might be guessing a little bit, especially if they are at close-down position at the time of contact.

Bottom line, there were bodies on the floor due to a crash happening from contact. We probably need to have something there, most likely coming from the C. The L can have a late whistle on this if they didn't like what the C passed on.
I agree with you on this particular play, but the way we're taught here is not to have a call just because you have players on the floor due to contact. If the defender had been responsible for this play, a no-call would have been correct. We're told, if you have a no-call and someone's on the floor, be able to explain how they got there.

jeschmit Thu Jan 21, 2010 02:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 654133)
I agree with you on this particular play, but the way we're taught here is not to have a call just because you have players on the floor due to contact. If the defender had been responsible for this play, a no-call would have been correct. We're told, if you have a no-call and someone's on the floor, be able to explain how they got there.
That's how I was taught too. Hence I said there should probably be a whistle on this play. There definitely are times where bodies hit the floor and it was done legally. This case, however, there should be a whistle. We've all missed them before, and that's what this forum is about: learning from it!

Scratch85 Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:00pm
Since there are differing views on who gets first shot at this call, I'll weigh in too.

In my area we give first shot on this call to L (it originated in his area and happened in his area.) If he doesn't get it C should get it. But I definitely think there should be a whistle on this play. IMO, PC.

Since it is likely that a shot is about to happen, the T is probably closing down and should be preparing to help on rebounding and watching feet for a travel. Maybe even getting the foul if both L and C miss it.

Anyway, thats how we approach it in my little corner of Rome.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIAm (Post 654115)
1st view = foul charged to A1
2nd -5th view = I don't think A1 displaced B1. If B1 was not looking to draw a foul on A1, I don't think B1 would have been displaced by A1.
Nope, A1 didn't displace B1; he just knocked him flat on his azz instead.:)

And what's wrong with B1 trying to draw a foul? :confused: Don't coaches teach their players how to take a charge? You can't penalize the defender for playing legal defense.

JPaco54 Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:32pm
It seems pretty clear to me - PC and somebody should have called it L or C or T...they all seemd in good position to call something...so nobody calls anything? This one does not need a lot of over analyzing...Some we miss. Thanks for the video, always a great tool to learn by.

Rich Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 654126)
I got it paused right as the contact happens, and I dont think that C was straightlined at the point of contact. At least not to the point as to where he cant get a good enough look on the play to make a PC call. I would like the C to come out and get this one, but the L should have a late/double whistle on this. I can see how the L might be guessing a little bit, especially if they are at close-down position at the time of contact.

Bottom line, there were bodies on the floor due to a crash happening from contact. We probably need to have something there, most likely coming from the C. The L can have a late whistle on this if they didn't like what the C passed on.
I'm not thrilled with the C's position on this or what he does with his positioning as the play developed (nothing, really).

When that curl play develops, I would like to see the C step down and get position to look through this contact. A strong C could've called this PC foul with no problems.

I agree that the L could've been a step or two deeper and a step or two wider, as well.

Rich Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ref2coach (Post 654132)
Stop the action at the 8 second mark, when the shoulder is hitting the defenders chest. The C's view is blocked by W23. Trail is blocked by B12 and W3. Neither B41 nor W25 is blocking the Leads view as long as the lead is deep and not closed down. Leads PCF call all the way.
Why is he blocked, though? Is it cause he's not stepping down and trying to get angles?

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 654103)
I'm going to disagree with the other posts - sort of. This is a PC foul, imo, but it is the C's call first, and the L's second...

It is a "curl" play into the middle of the key, so the C is going to have the best angle on it. I believe that if the play curls away from one official, that official should lay-off the call and let the official the play is curling toward take it. If the C doesn't get it, then the L needs to...
Yup, I can see the player curling into the center. Know what I can't see though? Any of the 3 officials moving to get a better look at the play. Everybody's standing still.

Sometimes all it takes is one little step to get yourself into position to see a play.

Watch Burr sometime. From the lead, he'll step onto the court if he's got room to get a better look at a play in the paint.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 654157)
I'm not thrilled with the C's position on this or what he does with his positioning as the play developed (nothing, really).

When that curl play develops, I would like to see the C step down and get position to look through this contact. A strong C could've called this PC foul with no problems.

I agree that the L could've been a step or two deeper and a step or two wider, as well.
I was writing mine as you were posting your's. We saw the same thing.

Clark Kent Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:45pm
Thanks fellas for the input. The last thing i wanted was to pawn the call off on one of my Partners, but I did want to know if I missed the call (by going no call on it) and I think you've made it clear I did. I also appreciate the insight on what I could've done to get a better look and that will be my goal for the next game I work.

Thanks

truerookie Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 654088)
YouTube - No Call2 2010_01_15_01_56_36.avi


I was lead on this play. As it occurred in the game I felt that I would have been guessing on the play had I blown so I held. Two questions....

First, (a) should there have been a whistle on it? (b) and if so should it have been mine? (c) and what should have been called?

Second, what should I have done if anything to get a better view on the play?
(a). Yes

(b). No, center should have first shot on curl plays away from the endline or L

(c). Player Control

What you should have done is work a little wider when you have room on the endline.

A point:

Personally, I don't like hugging the sidelines. I like working the floor as the C and T, if I cannot see between two players, I move to where I can, and if that means stepping on the floor more thats what I do.

I remember someone mentioning to me. A basketball official should have a boxing referee mentality. Always working to see in between the two boxers/players.

jdw3018 Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 654164)
Thanks fellas for the input. The last thing i wanted was to pawn the call off on one of my Partners, but I did want to know if I missed the call (by going no call on it) and I think you've made it clear I did. I also appreciate the insight on what I could've done to get a better look and that will be my goal for the next game I work.

Thanks
I really appreciate you putting these plays out for critique. I can tell you appreciate the feedback, but I appreciate getting to look at the play and see how everyone else's thoughts compare to mine. Great stuff!


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