Should there have been a whistle?
 

YouTube - No Call2 2010_01_15_01_56_36.avi

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I was lead on this play. As it occurred in the game I felt that I would have been guessing on the play had I blown so I held. Two questions....

First, (a) should there have been a whistle on it? (b) and if so should it have been mine? (c) and what should have been called?

Second, what should I have done if anything to get a better view on the play?

Four questions for the price of two?

I'll play.

1a. yes
1b. middle of the lane, you could have had a triple whistle. C probably had the best angle.
1c. looks like PC to me.

2. Going wider gives you a better angle.

From what I saw, PC foul, got the charge, no shot, going the other way.

I am first year, so take mine with a grain of salt :).



Oscar

Player control foul.

Your whistle all the way with help from the T and possibly the C as a final back up.

Pretty much the play originated in your primary and ended in a quasi gray dual coverage zone. But its your call the whole way.

From the video, I'd say a PC foul would have been the appropriate call. I don't think the contact is as significant as the defender makes it look, but it was there and the offensive player jumped through the defender. It's your call, but I could also see the C coming in as he should have had a good angle the and play was right in the middle. On any play where the post curls away from you to the middle of the paint, a strong C can get a great look at this play.

Were you screened out by other players, or did you get straight-lined? It looks like you were very tight to the land (in close-down position). Personally, I would have liked to have been wider on this play. It gives you a better angle on plays going to the lane like this and allows you to see the entire play better. On this play in particular it appears you could have gotten screened by the players near the endline if you'd been wide, though. As always, just my thoughts.

I would say this is L's with help from C, T as a final back up. C should have a better angle, and it's right on the line between L and C's PCAs.

I'm going to disagree with the other posts - sort of. This is a PC foul, imo, but it is the C's call first, and the L's second...

It is a "curl" play into the middle of the key, so the C is going to have the best angle on it. I believe that if the play curls away from one official, that official should lay-off the call and let the official the play is curling toward take it. If the C doesn't get it, then the L needs to...

This was my thought also.

I think you and your brother have too much time on your hands.....

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Looks to me like C may have been straightlined by a white player on this one. I agree with Rocky, this is one I'd like to get from C, but a double whistle would be good on this one.

As lead, it's a good one to get wide on to try to get as close to a 90 degree angle as possible on the space between them.

1st view = foul charged to A1
2nd -5th view = I don't think A1 displaced B1. If B1 was not looking to draw a foul on A1, I don't think B1 would have been displaced by A1.

A1 jumped square into B1's chest with his shoulder. I have no problem with B1 allowing himself to fall in this situation. He's not faking getting fouled, he's allowing it to happen. There's a difference.

Could he have held his ground? Maybe, but with that level of a hit, I'm not going to place the responsibility on the defender to stay standing.

On second thought that was L then C call - the T was completely out of the picture to have anything on that.

You have room on the endline so get deeper as well.

either way it was a missed call that could have resulted in 2 points scored. No big deal happenes every game, just take what you can learn from this and apply it in the future.

Did he flop? Maybe. But while he was flopping, the guy pounded him anyway.

Just because a player recoils from the contact, thus making it less severe, doesn't mean it can't be a foul.

I got it paused right as the contact happens, and I dont think that C was straightlined at the point of contact. At least not to the point as to where he cant get a good enough look on the play to make a PC call. I would like the C to come out and get this one, but the L should have a late/double whistle on this. I can see how the L might be guessing a little bit, especially if they are at close-down position at the time of contact.

Bottom line, there were bodies on the floor due to a crash happening from contact. We probably need to have something there, most likely coming from the C. The L can have a late whistle on this if they didn't like what the C passed on.

The answer to a, b and c is all the same: "Depends on what the spread was". :cool:

LOL....What? That is not something I wanted the reffing community to see!!!

Stop the action at the 8 second mark, when the shoulder is hitting the defenders chest. The C's view is blocked by W23. Trail is blocked by B12 and W3. Neither B41 nor W25 is blocking the Leads view as long as the lead is deep and not closed down. Leads PCF call all the way.

I agree with you on this particular play, but the way we're taught here is not to have a call just because you have players on the floor due to contact. If the defender had been responsible for this play, a no-call would have been correct. We're told, if you have a no-call and someone's on the floor, be able to explain how they got there.

That's how I was taught too. Hence I said there should probably be a whistle on this play. There definitely are times where bodies hit the floor and it was done legally. This case, however, there should be a whistle. We've all missed them before, and that's what this forum is about: learning from it!

Since there are differing views on who gets first shot at this call, I'll weigh in too.

In my area we give first shot on this call to L (it originated in his area and happened in his area.) If he doesn't get it C should get it. But I definitely think there should be a whistle on this play. IMO, PC.

Since it is likely that a shot is about to happen, the T is probably closing down and should be preparing to help on rebounding and watching feet for a travel. Maybe even getting the foul if both L and C miss it.

Anyway, thats how we approach it in my little corner of Rome.

Nope, A1 didn't displace B1; he just knocked him flat on his azz instead.:)

And what's wrong with B1 trying to draw a foul? :confused: Don't coaches teach their players how to take a charge? You can't penalize the defender for playing legal defense.

It seems pretty clear to me - PC and somebody should have called it L or C or T...they all seemd in good position to call something...so nobody calls anything? This one does not need a lot of over analyzing...Some we miss. Thanks for the video, always a great tool to learn by.

I'm not thrilled with the C's position on this or what he does with his positioning as the play developed (nothing, really).

When that curl play develops, I would like to see the C step down and get position to look through this contact. A strong C could've called this PC foul with no problems.

I agree that the L could've been a step or two deeper and a step or two wider, as well.

Why is he blocked, though? Is it cause he's not stepping down and trying to get angles?

Yup, I can see the player curling into the center. Know what I can't see though? Any of the 3 officials moving to get a better look at the play. Everybody's standing still.

Sometimes all it takes is one little step to get yourself into position to see a play.

Watch Burr sometime. From the lead, he'll step onto the court if he's got room to get a better look at a play in the paint.

I was writing mine as you were posting your's. We saw the same thing.

Thanks fellas for the input. The last thing i wanted was to pawn the call off on one of my Partners, but I did want to know if I missed the call (by going no call on it) and I think you've made it clear I did. I also appreciate the insight on what I could've done to get a better look and that will be my goal for the next game I work.

Thanks

(a). Yes

(b). No, center should have first shot on curl plays away from the endline or L

(c). Player Control

What you should have done is work a little wider when you have room on the endline.

A point:

Personally, I don't like hugging the sidelines. I like working the floor as the C and T, if I cannot see between two players, I move to where I can, and if that means stepping on the floor more thats what I do.

I remember someone mentioning to me. A basketball official should have a boxing referee mentality. Always working to see in between the two boxers/players.

I really appreciate you putting these plays out for critique. I can tell you appreciate the feedback, but I appreciate getting to look at the play and see how everyone else's thoughts compare to mine. Great stuff!

I concur but I've also been told (by whom I don't recall) that I move too much, so I assume there is a happy medium.

Well good. I like to hear that. I think it is great that I can get honest feedback from guys who don't know anything about me. It seems to be a more pure and unaltered opinion, and I like it. I am also happy to hear that you learn something from my gaffes and blunders as well. ;)

As it regards moving, I've heard advice similar to what you have. We can get "happy feet." But that's not a reason not to get the right angle on a play.

Best advice I've heard: Seeing the play is like taking a great photo. The first key to taking a photo is to have the right angle on the shot. That means that as the play starts to develop you have to quickly get to a spot that gives you the angle. Many of us want to do that - and we move.

But the second part of a great photo is to be still when you "take the shot". If you're moving to get a good photo, but then snap the shot when you're moving, what do you get? Blurs. If you get your angle, you then need to "freeze" and watch the play. That gives you an opportunity to see the play develop without any 'distortion' or 'blur'.

It has been great advice for me. It takes some anticipation of where the play is going to be, which direction it is going to head, etc. I will take a quick step up, down, forward, back, etc. when the play is getting started to get where I can have the best view. But then, unless something very unexpected happens, I try to stay still and let the play develop.

Now, sometimes that won't work and it's not a hard-and-fast rule, but trying to get the angle early, then stopping while the play actually happens, works well for me.

I like that, even though I'm the world's worst photographer! ;)

No way, dead contact to chest of defender with LGP established. PC all the way!

Different sequence
 

a) Yes
b) Lead
c) travel, small hop w/ both feet as soon as he receives the ball (prior to drilling defender who had solid LGP)

Advise on positioning
 

Thanks but help me out on this one...in two man, transition when these kids get ahead of me and I am the new L, there is no way I am going to beat them down the court, so what I have been doing, is slowing and stopping around the extended Free throw line and watch the play, then eventually moving down beyond the end line. I realized it is difficult to see the action while moving and although I am not in my proper place I can see the play and then move into place. Any suggetions?

Agree,
These plays are kind of like a mini-camp, I first look at these and in my mind decide what I would call. I appreciate all the deep insight, even differing views are helpful to "see" where people are looking.

Two-man is tough, and there are going to be times when you get beat. I have done the same as you - slow down and let the play go to the basket, then bust it down to the endline after the play (obviously if there's no call).

I think the mechanics are, for the most part, very good and if you follow them you will usually be in a good position to call the game. However, my general thought is as every play develops: go where you need to go to see the play, even if it's not "by the book."

Thanks for the insight
 

Thanks!

And what's wrong with B1 trying to draw a foul? That depends on how you "try to draw a foul". Flopping is "trying to draw a foul". After watching this play a couple of times, I think B1 exagerrated the contact. Certainly there was contact but I didn't see A1 go through B1.

I adjusted this one:
Don't coaches teach their players how to take a charge whether the contact was sufficient for a charge or not? (trying to draw a foul)

Surely your not taking the stance of "if the coaches teach it, it is OK".

You can't penalize the defender for playing legal defense. I agree.

And just because the player doesn't do everything within his power to stay upright doesn't mean he flopped. If I don't know for sure that the player could have stayed upright, then I'm going to assume he was knocked down.

Agreed. I was not trying to comment on the actual officials in this play, just a general point on curl plays. The C should definitely have moved to get an angle as soon as he saw the post curl into the key. The L could have moved out a step or two for a better angle also.

Bottom line, if there is a missed call in one of my games, "we" missed it - even if it was in one of my parner's PCA's.

I think requiring players to "take a good shot" leads to a lot of no calls where fouls are more appropriate. In other words, I think you're absolutely right.

Tell me you're kidding and not actually condoning this as a useful movement or part of the mechanics are you?

Do you know what "flopping" is? It's faking being fouled. A flop involves NO or very little contact. Are you really saying that there was NO or very little contact on that play?

If you think think that was a flop, we're looking at different films.

Are you coaching the white team?:D

To me it looked the hop was at the start of his dribble. Do you really think that #3 lifted his pivot foot before he started the dribble? Looked to me that it mighta been at the same time but "before" is a stretch imo. And if there's any doubt, I ain't making a call.

Yes it's a useful movement to see rebounding contact underneath sometimes. And yes, Burr ain't the only one to use it.

And no, I'm not kidding. You do what you have to do sometimes when you've got a lot of big bodies banging underneath.

With all due respect, if the L is going to come off the baseline onto the court to take a look what good is the C? If this was a good idea, it would be in the mechanics manual, it's not found in any of them and it would be used more often than just by a select set of agin officials who are set in their ways and can do as they please. This is never a good idea for anyone, especially for the "less athletic" members of our profession.

Apparently we are going to have to agree to disagree on this because that "mechanic" is ridiculous.

You don't think an L that is just above the endline on one side has a completely different view than a C that is at the FT line extended on the other?

I don't know that I've used this positioning more than once or twice in my career, but I never say never, and the argument that "what's the C for?" is misguided. I'm a fan of going where you need to go to see the play. Normally that's where the proper mechanics suggest. Every once in a while you have to improvise.

Here, here, JR!!

2004-05 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

B. 'Flopping.' The defensive player or screener acting as though he or she has been charged by an opponent, when in fact he or she has not been, definitely has an impact on the game. It is detrimental to the best interests of basketball. The "actor" wants to create the false impression that he or she has been fouled in the charging/guarding situation, or while he or she is screening when in either case there is no contact or incidental contact. The "actor" falls to the court as though he or she were knocked down by the force of the contact. Those actions are designed to have a foul charged to the opponent – a foul not deserved. The "flop" also incites spectators. The rules are in place to deal with such activity and must be enforced. A technical foul is charged to the "actor" in all cases. Coaches can have a positive impact by appropriately dealing with players who fake being fouled.

It is not a part of the game. Officials must penalize the act.

could have been a subjective point of view..