Welmer out...
 

With a torn meniscus.

Hate to hear that about anyone, do you think it may be because they have them call somewhere about 5 or 6 nights a week????? Maybe they should take this into consideration.

Who should? Who is "they?"

My nonprofessional opinion is maybe the foot was not all the way healed and he was compensating for that and thus causing strain elsewhere (knee).

He certainly looked to be laboring a little bit while running.

Assignors! I'm sure he is not the only one that has had something like this happen. They work them guys way to hard, different city 5 or 6 nights a week. Sure it's great money, but at what price?

Concur.

Numbers of games refs work comes up every yr....... shrug.

No is always an answer.......

They don't work them any harder than he wants to be worked. He can refuse assignments anytime he gets ready too.

When he is ready to quit calling, that is when they start turning down games. Turn down a couple and they quit calling. The assignors should realize this and not put them in this position to have to turn down games. That is my point.

So, do you propose the assigners all get together and determine which of them can have Welmer on which days? How do they determine his days off? How do they enforce it?

Do you get with other customers and determine how many people your local McDonald's can provide meals for in week? No, the market sets it by their performance. Same goes for officials like Welmer. As long as he's performing up to the standards desired by the assigners, he'll be able to work 7 days a week if he wants.

The officials give their assignors open dates. Each individual assignor slots his games in the league(s) he's responsible for by using the availabilities given to him. And each assignor usually does not know what that official is doing on the days that he has said he isn't available.

Iow, the individual assignor doesn't really know how many consecutive games that Welmer or any other offiicial is working. They can only control the schedule when an official is working for them, but they can't control when the official may be working for another assignor.

And look what it got him?

Welmer is offered a pick of the games from multiple conferences and schools (for nonconference games). He sits down and chooses his schedule based on travel and sends the rest of the possible games back to be assigned to other officials. Do a Google search and you'll be able to find an article that describes this well.

Also, I'm sure that Welmer has game fee insurance that will ensure he doesn't hurt financially from missing these games. I'm sure it bothers him to miss the end of the season 2 years in a row, but it's not like he's on Adams's speed dial for the NCAA tourney anyway.

But that's the point. You wrote how the assignors are working him so hard. HE has the power to decide how much HE wants to work.

In my opinion, it got him at roughly $200,000 a year in officiating wages. I'd be ok with that. :D It is up to each individual to figure out how often they want to work. He's carried a full schedule like that for years. Unfortunately injuries happen to everyone. I'll never be a men's official, but I'd take a Welmer on his 25th day in a row before a lot of other officials. That guy knows how to run a game.

And his assignors and schools like the way he does it, too.

It wouldn't seem that the people assigning post-season games do though....

You think??? :rolleyes:

He's been laboring running for the last decade, but the coaches and the conference assignors obviously love him.

For my money I think he calls a good game, but one has to wonder if he had scaled down his schedule, like some of his contemporaries (Higgins and Burr to name two), he might have been able to avoid some of the injuries.

So? He gets well over 100 games in the regular season by people who like how he runs a game. You think he's going to change to work 3-4 more?

Scaling down obviously would have decreased his chances of injury. But, it also decreases (pretty significantly) his earning potential. When you're to the point he is, if that's your primary source of income, it's easy to take a "get it while you can" mentality.

It's easy for us to sit here and say he should take some time off. But it's awful hard when taking a night off means giving up more than what many take home every two weeks.

From everything I've read, he's not exactly thrilled with the prospect of going down as the best ref never to work the Big Dance...

I know, but I think that ship sailed years ago. At some point you realize you are never going to get that Final Four or that HS State and you move on from it. I've gotta say, I've just about reached that point in my so-called career. I'm mostly OK with it, except when I'm not. :D

So? I've had one for over a year.

Seriously, mine is a mild one and it has slowed me down somewhat, going in late March. Hope Welmer is back next season.

Especially when he can get the same 3-4 more in the NIT.

I totally agree with you, but some of the guys his age have realized that reducing their schedule might allow them to continue working.

If I were Welmer I'd want to keep doing games for as long as possible and doing 100 games (along with the requisite travel) every year is going to shorten his career.

To the Final Four point...He hasn't worked the 2nd weekend in a long time, so I think that he knew the Final Four ship sailed long ago. I wonder (and there's probably no answer to this) if he worked fewer games if he would have been fresher at the end of the season and might have got that FF assignment that every DI ref dreams of somewhere along the way.

Huh?!?!?
 

Welmer is almost 60 years old. He has been at the highest level for more than 25 years. He isn't worried about "extending" his career, he wants another shot at THE Dance!

As for INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS, well, they are their own business, and they are able to dictate how much or how little they can handle.

As for the rest of us who wish we were in his shoes . . . the door is opening, now what are we going to do about it. ;)

I know people say oh he is a great ref and all this. But the fact is he was doing too many games. That injury can happen to anyone but you see it a lot with tennis players and other people on their feet a lot. too much wear and tear. NCAA should put up restrictions for refs.

Whats with all the whining for wear and tear? The basketball season is about 2-3 months a year. I dont think we are working as vigorously or as often in the off season. Some of you make it sound like he's working at this pace all year...He has 9 months to relax and rest.

Division I basketball is a 5+ month season. Started in early November this year, the regular season concludes with conference championships the second week of March. That's 4.5 months. If you include post-season tournaments that last another month you have 5.5 months. Considering many of these officials are also working a few scrimmages before the season starts you could conceivable work pretty steady for almost 6 months.

I assume that Mr. Welmer enjoys what he does and would like to continue for as long as possible.

As for the Final Four...bigdog, do you really think he has any shot at a Final Four? He hasn't worked the tournament at all for the last two years, and he worked one game each in 2006 and 2007.

Now you and I would love to have worked a career that even remotely resembles his and I would come close to killing for one shot to work a game in the NCAA tourney, but he's been there and done that. Judging by his recent record I would be shocked if he ever got the chance to work the FF even if he comes back completely healthy

His assignors will be looking for a replacement.

I'm available. :)

Same here...I just had it done, and two weeks recuperating...back at the job now...these tears are a part of living the ref life....I had both knees done 15 years ago, and now the left one this month....It happens....

Shameless. ;)

That still leaves 6 months of R&R. Plenty of time to ready oneself for the next season. Besides I dont need any one putting a limit on how much I can work. Either I can or I cant.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that 5+ months of working high level college basketball with only a day or two off each month is some significant pounding on the body.

I completely defend the right of an official to take as many games as he feels he can call.

Shameless?
 

Snaq - Are you kidding? mb, according to a thread he started earlier TODAY, said he worked his first GV HS game last year and his first BV game LAST NIGHT!

Shameless?

mb is prepping himself for stardom baby. He's certainly on the fast track. Alas, we all knew him when...! :p

I didn't realize mbyron had moved to Southern California.

115-120 games a year...$200,000 is probably a low estimate.

JD Collins hasn't worked since the end of December. Is he hurt too? He's one of my favorites to watch...

I thought about Welmer last night as my wife and I were watching "How I Met Your Mother" on DVR. It's the episode where Robin finds out she's the subject of a drinking game.

OMG, that's funny!

I dont get the reference to Southern California here?

I can't find it quickly, but you might be able to search for the reference. We had a hot-shot official from SoCal come in here a while back claiming their training programs were so far superior to anywhere else, and their officials likewise far superior to anywhere else, that guys were ready to work college ball in their third year.

That would be this gem of a thread. A reference to the EGSDOTU was made as well. Happy reading.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...-politics.html

All of socal's posts were deleted? Interesting.

Self-immolation maybe?

What's the EGSDOTU? I must've missed that.

Good to see another How I Met Your Mother fan. I was thinking the same thing too. :D

It's no Big Bang Theory, but it's awfully good.

It's a reverential reference to the Jurassic one, but I can't for the life of me remember what it stands for.

For the life of me I can't remember what it stood for. I do know that if it came from Dan, it sureashell wasn't reverential. The only thing that Dan ever revered was the Yankees and Woody. I was rated somewhere below what you get on the bottom of your shoes when you walk through a cow pasture.:D

And to be perfectly clear also, that would be Woody, his dog.:)

I miss Dan.....

I do too.

And, I'm sure I speak for him when I say: STFU. :D

Yes he is hurt. Out for the year I understand.

Peace

Too bad. He's a great official and I like watching him work. That's 2 big dogs in the Big 10 out.

Hartzell was at the Badgers game last night along with 2 younger (I think) guys I didn't recognize. Brutal game, glad I didn't go -- the Badgers had 2 points 11 minutes into the game and came back late. I guess the last 10 minutes would've been worth seeing.

I think we all miss him.

I'll crawl back into my corner now.

I still wish I could remember what that stood for.

STFU?

I'll e-mail you the answer.

Esteemed Grand Supreme Douchebag Of The Universe.

Dan always thought very highly of me. The lad was like a son. The son that you keep in a locked closet when company comes.

Very highly indeed. The best I ever elicited from him was "elitist prick". Not exactly his A game. Not even his B.

Sometimes accuracy is more important than style.

You cut me so deep.

1. He makes a lot of money and I can't fault him for that one bit.
2. He is well liked by coaches and players.
3. From an officiating standpoint he just isn't that good. His calls are just a little less obvious than what Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles would call. I'm talking about from a scientific standpoint, which is where the game is going.
4. With Dale Kelly losing some conferences and his injuries, he may never make it back to where he once was. I wonder what Curtis Shaw thinks of him. At any rate, I don't think he will be hurting for money if he hangs them up right now. I think he also runs and/or owns a golf course or two.

Bull pucky. You personally just don't like the guy. And you've shown that personal bias on here many times over the years. There's nothing the matter with that; you're entitled to your opinion. But why not just man up and admit that you don't like him rather than getting into nonsense like "scientific standpoint" and "where the game is going".

Not very believable imo, Tom.

Have you ever watched him on tape and broke down his game? If you do that and still feel the same way we just have different opinions. But, if you really look at his game I don't think you will disagree. There are many officials in D1 who have got by for a long time on their personality and a feel for the game. Officiating has been moving from an art to a science for a while and John Adams is furthering this cause. Welmer is just one of those guys. Hank Nichols and NCAA evaluators must agree with my opinion and that is why he doesn't advance.

I don't go with the crowd and in this case, Welmer is popular among officials. But to say he is opposite of what I said is wrong. As a sports fan, UNC basketball is another area where I don't mind going against the crowd. UNC has had more talent than UCLA with considerably less success. To me, great recruiting and good - not great - coaching is the cause. Maybe off topic, but when UNC and Duke get beat like they have been lately it warms the cockles of my heart. :D

Most of the time when I speak up about Welmer it is when someone mentions him as a great official. That, in my opinion, is bull pucky.

I will say this. There is something wrong with a system that has Welmer working 100 plus games a year and always on TV working the big games, and not working deep in the NCAA tournament. I am not saying this is because Welmer is bad, just saying something is wrong with a system that allows a person to constantly work but is not seen as good enough to work the tournament.

Peace

1) Yup, and I think that Ed Hightower and Ted Valentine are "one of those guys" too. Personality and a feel for the game is part of what makes all of them good officials. Hightower is starting to labor when he runs also. But all three of those guys can still do a helluva good job imo. Hell, take away their personalities and feel for the game and I personally don't think that they'd be anywhere near as good as they are.

2) And right there was the point that I was trying to make. What you think about Welmer is only your opinion. That doesn't make it fact. And if you feel that other officials are great even though they might share a lot of Welmer's attributes, hey, that's your opinion also and that doesn't make it a fact either. Personally, I'd hate to see the "art" part of both Valentine's and Hightower's game diminish; I don't think that either would be anywhere near as good as they are now if they went by "science" alone.

I just kinda find it funny that you'll take any opportunity that you can find to crap on some officials but you absolutely worship other guys and would never admit that they might be....well... human also.

And that's my opinion.

To me, it will be a sad day when the D1 officials become the nameless, faceless robots that 90% of the NBA officials are. And I absolutely put Hightower and Valentine in the same class as Welmer. And yet, they've been in the Final Four countless times while Welmer has been shut out. Gee, I wonder why that is?

A guy I worked with on Friday used to run the clock at Iowa games. He has met all 3 in numerous pre-games and said all three treated them very well. I don't think they counted tugs, though.

Agree completely, Rich. And I also think that there is a lot of "art" involved in good officiating at any level. And that includes high school.

There's a lot more to making the right call than just "making the right call".

Two weeks recovery? Pretty good. I've had people say anywhere from 3 -6 weeks. I don't carry much weight and I think it's pretty mild so you've given me hope that I can start at least jogging in two weeks.

When have you ever heard me say anything about Hightower or Valentine that indicates I worship them? What you read was me saying they have a lot of their antics after they blow the whistle while Hall and Thornley jump around during play.

You know who I think is good in D1? Jamie Luckie, Hal Lusk, Pat Adams and Les Jones. Also, I think Scott Foster is one of the best, if not the best, NBA official and I would hardly call him a robot.

You didn't answer my question. Have you broke down Welmer's game on tape? I wonder if anyone on the forum has. I don't have anything against his habits on the court, how he gets along with player/coaches or any of that. What I'm talking about is play calling. I'm not saying he is horrible, like some perceived "Big Dogs", but he isn't an elite play caller or even close.

Maybe we are looking at different aspects of officiating and that is why we disagree. You are also thinking I really have something against Welmer. I would take him over some officials, #cough - David Hall - cough#, any day. I actually think what he has achieved in the game is rather fascinating. To do 127 (the most I've heard of him doing) games in a season is unthinkable.

I hope you understand what my opinion is and don't think I have something personal against Welmer. I just don't think he is as good as others do.

The guys in the NBA aren't nameless or faceless to me and many other officials. Isn't the overriding theme to get plays right? That being the case, the NBA does a better job at doing that than the NCAA or high school. Mr. Rush is helping the NCAA get there, but it will take some time.

Whenever you go to a camp, the clinicians frequently talk about how they don't know if they could make it with the competition the way it is now. Officials are trained at a level higher than it used to be and the training is aimed at getting plays right NOT tugging on pants or squating when you blow the whistle.

I went to the WI/Penn State game yesterday. Valentine and Hightower were on the game. It was a very physical game, IMO. I just don't see how one can look at a tape and definitively say "this is a foul" or "this isn't a foul." While they can try to put as much science (via absolutes) into the game as they want, there's still a significant art in determining advantage/disadvantage on the fly. It's why one game, IMO, feels tightly called and another feels less so -- sometimes in the same conference.

How do we determine what's right? Welmer lets something go and someone watching tape subjectively decides that it should've been a foul? Please. Why wouldn't Welmer's subjective opinion be worth just as much -- he works the most games, after all.

It's tough, I know. How do you keep basketball a contact but not collision game and still have good flow and not blow the whistle every 8 seconds?

Are you saying watching tape has no value or less value than people give it? You do understand how much training is gained through watching tape don't you? The NBA requires it and it is becoming a bigger part of NCAA training. The move to reaching consistency from coast to coast is something many want in the college game. Is this what you would refer to as becoming robots?

I know what you mean, but certain absolutes make the game more consistent. Teams, players, coaches and officials can plan for it.

1) No, and if I ever get the urge to sit down and break down any NCAA official on tape(other than somebody I may know, like and think will appreciate it if I do give him some constructive feedback), I'm going to take something to make the urge go away. Why would I want to waste my time looking for reasons to say to the world that so-and-so is a crappy official? I'll leave that up to you, Tom. I always thought that evaluation by tape was supposed to be a positive process, not an excuse for someone to put down a fellow official. Somehow, I get the idea that your breaking Welmer down on tape might be done a little bit too subjectively.

2) Yup, I sureashell do respect your right to have an opinion. Everybody has their own opinions as to how good some prominent officials really are. I don't think that you have to denigrate a fellow official while doing so though. Note that's just my opinion.

3) And I personally completely disagree with those statements. Nobody outside the NBA has a clue whatinthehell "right" is supposed to be. Hell, I've been officiating for 50 years and I couldn't tell anybody if asked what a foul in the NBA is. And yes, I think they'll let the stars get away with traveling, etc. also in the name of the holy "entertainment. My opinion is that the NBA in it's current state is completely unwatchable. It's the WWE with a basketball. And note that 25 years ago, I was a complete NBA junky. It's just doesn't resemble basketball very much anymore in my opinion.

Hey, I agree that it certainly is your right to crap on Welmer every chance that you get. Keep on keeping on.

Oh no, I watch as much tape as I can. I try to see if there's something I wish I would've called (or not called) as well as positioning, where I'm looking, etc.

But there is a part of this that can't be reduced to an absolute -- unless we prohibit all contact, calls will always be fairly subjective.

I'm saying that to watch tape simply to look for reasons to denigrate another official is not the correct use of the evaluation process.

In this case you're watching tape only to aid you in your quest to dump on Welmer. It has nothing to do with training anybody or helping Welmer become a better official.

Again, just so that you don't misconstrue anything that I've said, that's my opinion.

True.

Well to be honest, the NCAA uses tape to show many bad examples of officiating and also uses it to eliminate people out of the tournament. There is a reason many big name officials only worked one round or none at all in the NCAA Tournament last year.


I think your position on the NBA is no different than what Tommy's opinion is on Welmer. You have an opinion and I think your position on the NBA is really not accurate. For one the NBA is not nearly as physical as college. I think the reason is they have fewer officials to monitor and they can get a handful of guys on the same page or they will find someone else to do it. I also used to be a fan of the NBA but I am not, but it has nothing to do with the officiating. It has everything to do with the style of play for me. But to say that it is so physical is just not true in my opinion. Actually they call a lot of slight contact fouls that you do not see even called at the college level by the big timers. And some of the worst traveling calls or non-traveling calls I see are at the college level.

Again this is my take on your comments, but that is your right to feel that way. I just do not think what you say is totally true. I think a lot of people buy into the media hype of the NBA and that is fine. I just think that perception is not true.

Peace

I haven't looked at tape of Welmer. However, after attending several camps and watching tape with my friends it doesn't take a lot of time to tell when someone is officiating by the seat of their pants and when someone has a tried and true method of getting plays right.

Sorry if I'm not willing to drink the Welmer Kool-Aid. I will leave that to you.

Rut,

While what you are saying is totally true, you are nearly 3,000 posts shy of the credibility to post it.

Of course, I'm being totally sarcastic!

It is par for the course. I have an opinion and I'm dumping on an official. JR has an opinion and it is made to seem as though it came down from the heavens.

All I ask is this: tell me why Welmer is an elite college official and I'm not talking about how coaches, players and an assigner feels. I say that because 1) we are known for giving credibility to what a coach and/or player says when it is good but not when it is bad and 2) the assigners who assign the last games, the tournament, have never thought highly of him.

Could someone make an argument comparing him to officials like Jamie Luckie, Les Jones, Hal Lusk or Pat Adams? I just don't think he compares.

Maybe not, but that makes me question how Hightower has been so successful in the tourney and Welmer hasn't even gotten a sniff of the Final Four. I'm just curious what the powers to be see in Hightower that they don't see in Welmer.

Hey, I've already said that you've got a perfect right to crap on any official that you want. Keep on doing what you do. Shrug.

I don't think Hightower is perfect, but you asked...

Hightower is a "R" and he isn't afraid to make a call that doesn't sit well with the coaches and players. Another example is Dave Libbey. Mr. Libbey wasn't the most PC official, but he took pride in the mechanics - the science - of officiating.

Do you think Hightower and Welmer are equal as play callers?

I do not want to get into the names thing. I am just saying that there is something wrong with the system when someone can work the top games every night and not work the tournament. And there is something wrong when someone that is working the Final Four is not always working the top games.

Then again things are changing in the landscape and we will see if that will continue to be the case.

Peace

Do you realize how much you use that "crap on officials" line? You crap on NBA officials, but since it comes from you I guess it doesn't count right?

The only thing you are saying is that I'm crapping on Welmer, but you don't have a real counter to what I'm saying.

I don't know. I do know that I can't remember one situation where a coach really lost it with Welmer. Don't know if that's indicative of not making tough calls or just being so widely respected.

I can't really make an educated statement about the 2 of them without watching both of them for that purpose, which is partially why I asked. I do know that on Sunday, I thought Hightower's position as the C (he was frequently higher up than the trail) was a bit odd, but other than that, seemed like a well-called (loosely, too) game.

And I respect your right to have your take also. Some of it I personally agree with and some of it I don't.

With regards to the red-highlighted statement above, I basically agree with that also. But in my opinion NBA officials do not call this type of play consistently. I see it called...and then I see it no-called.....and I see one official calling it and another official letting rape go. It's the inconsistency in calling contact in the NBA that I personally just can't figure out. And I ain't the only one. I think that D1 officials are more consistent within their conferences in calling contact. That said, there is a disparity from conference to conference also, and it's been that way forever.

Jmo also, Jeff.

Thank you Rich. Thank you for having a normal discussion on the subject. I can't really argue with what you just posted.

Geeze, Tom, no need to get your panties in a wad just because JR thinks you're full of crap.:D

Chill.

JR knows I'm not full of crap. JR just isn't used to people disagreeing with him...or so it seems. :D

BTW, thongs don't get in a wad! :eek:

Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh. I didn't need to read that!

I need to go look at some pretty pictures now.

Mission accomplished! :D I knew that would get someone's attention. It hurts to even think about.

Nope, I'm crapping on the NBA. I feel sorry for NBA officials. They aren't allowed to go out there there and just officiate the damn game. They have to meet some suit's idea of how they should be calling the game to keep the fans coming in. They're the most over-scrutinized and second-guessed group of officials in the world in my opinion.

My counter to you is "when was the last time that you said anything positive about any official that wasn't one of your very own personal favorites?"

Never that I can remember, Tom.

Not a true statement, but since you think it I'm sure you think it is fact. Fortunately for me, I'm way past the point where I have to say/type things that go along with your daily mood swings.

I've seen a clip of Rut and know some of his philosophies. I think he is going to do good - not to say he hasn't done good already - as an official. What else good would you like me to say your high-ness? :p

You have seen me work and even worked with me. I am still waiting for you to say good things about me. :D

Dude, you know I wouldn't have bad things to say about you. Can I come to town and work with you guys in April?

Tom, to be quite honest, I really don't give a damn and could care less about anything that you say. :)

And please note that I could care even less about what you might think of me.

But if I do disagree with you on something, I certainly will tell you.

It sounds like your panties are in a wad! :D

Riddle me this caped crusader, if you don't care about what anyone has to say - something you have alluded to before - why come here? To grace us all with your knowledge and wisdom?

Also, it is "couldn't care less", but I suppose you could care less. :D

Tom, feel free to have the last word. I've already said everything that I want to.

WOBW.

What does that mean?