Flagrant or Intentional?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't know who you are anymore.

Shut up.

[Adam]

Now I feel all warm and fuzzy. Thanks.

[just another ref]

With regard to the OP, (remember the OP, back before we got all warm and fuzzy?) if anybody smacks anybody "forcefully in the face" and there is "no doubt at all it was done intentionally," it sounds flagrant to me.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The sentence "it may or may not be intentional" in rule 4-19-4 has been completely misinterpreted by some people.

Including me. But Jurassic Referee straightened me out. It took several posts, but he was patient with me, and eventually won me over with knowledge and logic.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Just out of curiosity did you go personal or technical?

Did we ever get a definitive answer for this?

Fist to opponent's face: Personal (live ball contact)
Swear directly into opponent's face: Technical (live ball noncontact)
Throw ball and hit opponent in face: Technical (live ball non-contact)
Hold ball and hit opponent in face with ball?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

I agree it's a HTBT situation, but if as you describe it was clearly an intentional hit to the face with the ball I'd probably lean towards flagrant.

Welpe:
I had to make the exact same choice you did in a BJV game last week. I'm at 3 on the count A1 pinned on the end line by B1&B2, A1 makes the decision to get his elbows up above his head and swings them striking B1, the contact puts B1 on the floor and ultimately he has to be replaced.
2 yr. ref and this is my first time seeing this type of play. I went with intentional personal. Like yours a HTBT. I reviewed the play and my call with V game refs (who were in the locker room and did not see the play)....and echoed what many have said here, could have gone flagrant...personal or intentional.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Did we ever get a definitive answer for this?

Hold ball and hit opponent in face with ball?

Not definitively covered imo. Could be:
1) PC foul
2) intentional personal foul
3) flagrant personal foul
4) unsporting technical foul
5) intentional technical foul if it neutralizes a defender's position
6) flagrant technical foul

Or incidental contact.....

It all depends on whether you define "contact" as involving physical contact between players only or also contact between player/ball being held by an opponent.

My advice? Go with your heart!

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Why is it that most of the strange situations discussed on this site involve a girls game? I'm not pointing fingers at the officials or the players, but it just seems like things like this happen with girls games more than boys games.

I've coached girls for 9 yrs, and it didn't take long to conclude exactly what tomegun observes. I think I figured out why, and I've never heard this theory before. I've come to believe that the reason girls will "snap" or do something stupid that could (and sometimes does) cause injury is because there's very little chance of getting punched in the face for doing something stupid or aggressive like there is with boys.

Girls come up playing ball under direct supervision of an adult. With rare exception, girls don't play ball at recess, at the park, or in the yard after school; all places where direct supervision by adults is minimal or non existant. Boys grow up playing ball in all these minimally supervised places. When I was 12 yrs old playing pick up ball, if I shoved an airborne shooter into the basket support pole, chances are I was going to get punched. I developed a respect for my opponent, not becasue it was ethically and morally correct, but because there was consequences for doing something stupid. Girls never develop that basic survival respect for their opponent because they never play under the threat or possibility of getting punched in the nose as a consequence for their actions. That's my theory.

Girls will barrel roll through an opponents legs when chasing a ball toward the sideline or endline and an opponents body is btwn ball and barrel roller. Girls will take eachothers legs out on a layup attempt, making no effort to go for the ball. Girls will pinch (purple nurple style) eathother in the torso area when screened. Girls will run their momentum through an opponent, pushing her into the stands or into a close wall on an and line, when they could have taken a slightly different angle, or controlled their momentum slightly to lessen the impact. All the while idiot parents in the stands are yelling, "Nice hustle." Boys learn at a young age a healthy respect for not doing these things. ANd if they do, their will sometimes be punches thrown even in an officiated game.

[QUOTE]One thing I always pregame before a girls game is their "instant on" behaviors. A lot of time, you can sense trouble brewing in a boys game and do something to control it. But many times girls just snap... [QUOTE]

Absolutely true, last night one of my players was punched with an open hand square in the forehead, it was like a right cross punch, but with palm of hand instead of fist. My player (small guard) was defending had just switched onto a post player and was in front of the basket in the lane trying to hold poor (behind) rebound position. As the rebound was secured away from my sm guard, the post player turned around (she had inside position) looked my guard right in the eye and punched her betweenh the eyes. What was the provocation? My guard says she did body up from behind and had leveraged the top of her thigh under the post players back side, moving her forward a little.


2 yrs ago, this same guard (Sr now) had just stole the ball at mid court from the opponents point guard and was taking it to the basket for a layup. The girl she "picked" caught up from behind and ran straight through my guards front leg which was extended in the air as she released the ball. My guard flipped in the air before landing, came down with her hand/arm extended to break her fall and broke a bone in her wrist. The defender never raised her hand to go for the ball, just ran through my players extended front leg. As I was watching it on video afterwards, I noticed that about 3 posessions before the injury, my same player drove the lane where a help defender stood waiting with good position and her hands straight up over her head. My player had a good angle to get past her. At the last second, the defender took a tiny step toward my players path and threw her hip out to the side, making contact with my players hip sending her flying head over heals out of bounds.

I mention these last two examples because they are the kinds of stupid actions boys learn not to do at an early age, or you might get punched. While it's true that girls are less likely to punch someone in the first place, basketall is a whole different social experience when there's always an adult with a whistle present. With extremely rare exception, when girls play basketball, there's always an adult right there.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's a good question, the definition states it "involves illegal contact with an opponent...." Note that "contact" isn't necessarily defined as requiring body contact. I think it's the right choice for this play.

I don't.

Consult 10.3.6 SITUATION B.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Did we ever get a definitive answer for this?

Throw ball and hit opponent in face: Technical (live ball non-contact)
Hold ball and hit opponent in face with ball?

I don't see why these two should be treated differently. The contact is ball to player in both.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Consult 10.3.6 SITUATION B.

I did, which is how I ended up with no-call, PC or one sumthin' of intentional/flagrant.

Now, what's your take as to whether it's a personal or technical foul if a foul is called?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I did, which is how I ended up with no-call, PC or one sumthin' of intentional/flagrant.

Now, what's your take as to whether it's a personal or technical foul if a foul is called?

My take is that it must be technical, if a foul is called.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My take is that it must be technical, if a foul is called.

Do you think that it's definitively covered by rule?

[just another ref]

A player shall not contact an opponent with the ball, unless contact is incidental and only with the opponent's hand as the opponent attempts to make a play on the ball.