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-   -   T for 2 (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56351-t-2-a.html)

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 651812)
That's an accusation of cheating. One approach is to ask the coach, "Are you aware that you're accusing me of cheating?"
And I've asked coaches that exact same question.

A coach has got a better chance of getting away with calling me an azzhole than getting away with "call it both ways".

Adam Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 651812)
That's an accusation of cheating. One approach is to ask the coach, "Are you aware that you're accusing me of cheating?" Usually they're not.
That's what I meant by "throw away line." They use it because they've heard it a thousand times before, but they don't think about the ramifications. Sort of like "over the back" and "reach." They don't think about the fact that you can't have a foul without contact, so they continually toss it around.

I think they need to be aware of what it means, even though it's not as strong a trigger for me as it is for JR. I think it's similar to telling me the foul count.

GoodwillRef Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 649731)
The home coach couldn't believe I called a technical for the kid pulling his jersey over his head. He asked, "what else did he do?" I simply said, "that's all it took."

This was the same guy who told me I was out of position about 30 seconds into the game. 2-person. I'm lead opposite. Ball goes out tableside sideline -- I didn't even know it went out until I heard this whistle, BTW -- I was watching the post-play dance underneath. Bump and run. As I was coming in front of his bench as the new trail, the coach said I should've been in position to help my partner out there. It was so absurd I actually laughed.

He then accused me of being out of position at a critical juncture late. Rebound kicked out wide and his player took it with his back to the bucket (about 82 feet away). He simply turned to dribble up the floor and a defender was right there and he bumped into the guy and fell to the floor. I called a travel. The defender had position and there was no foul to be called, really. He told me I missed the bump and was out of position. Given the comment in the first minute, I'm thinking he thinks "in position" means standing in his coaching box.

It was a long day. We finished the 2:30PM game about 4:15 and I had to get on the road to meet our third at 5PM and drive about an hour to our 7:15PM game, which was actually more fun to work than the afternoon game (it was 3-person and wasn't frantic, out-of-control action the whole game). The first beer tasted good, as did the burger. Pulled into the house about 12:30AM.
This is also an automatic whack.

Rich Fri Jan 15, 2010 01:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 652038)
This is also an automatic whack.
The comment from the coach? I didn't even acknowledge him. He proved his knowledge about officiating in the first minute of the game. At least he was quiet while being stupid about it.

fullor30 Fri Jan 15, 2010 01:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewNCref (Post 649737)
I agree with jdmara. I think chirping about positioning needs to be cut off ASAP. I will usually address something related specifically related to position (i.e. "You've got to get in position to see that!") the first time. Something more indirect (i.e. "You called that and your partner was standing right in front of it and didn't have anything?!) might be ignored the first time, but certainly needs to be addressed if it's a repeated thing.

Like jdmara said, usually a quick word like "I'm not going to tell you how to coach, Coach, so let me take care of the officiating" will take care of things.
I don't care for that comeback as it invites another comeback "good,I've been waiting for you to officiate" or "please do", something along those lines.

Secondly, it's a tired, cliched response IMO, one that coaches have heard numerous times before and have an arsenal of retorts that can only end badly.

fiasco Fri Jan 15, 2010 01:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 652066)
I don't care for that comeback as it invites another comeback "good,I've been waiting for you to officiate" or "please do", something along those lines.

Secondly, it's a tired, cliched response IMO, one that coaches have heard numerous times before and have an arsenal of retorts that can only end badly.
My standard response to something like the above is "Coach, we're not going to have a discussion about this" and leave it at that. There's no wiggle room in there.

tomegun Fri Jan 15, 2010 01:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewNCref (Post 649737)
"I'm not going to tell you how to coach, Coach, so let me take care of the officiating"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 649733)
I always mention that he is here to coach his kids and if he is watching my positioning his team is not obviously being coached.
I'm always amazed by the comments some people say to coaches. I wouldn't say either one of these things because I don't think it is my job to be smart/witty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 649732)
my partner sat him down (he talked at my partner for over a minute during the 4 FTs and not once did he ask a question, so my partner didn't say a single word)
Where was your partner in relation to the coach? Was he standing beside the coach, with his back to the coach, etc.?

Rich Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 652083)
I'm always amazed by the comments some people say to coaches. I wouldn't say either one of these things because I don't think it is my job to be smart/witty.



Where was your partner in relation to the coach? Was he standing beside the coach, with his back to the coach, etc.?
And I don't respond to comments unless I have to TCB. I didn't feel it was worth escalating there. I say something stupid or witty and he responds loudly and I've just baited him into something......

About the T:

Alongside with the coach slightly behind (him a step on court, coach in the box), completely non-confrontational. The coach talked, my partner stood there and listened, my partner calmly reminded him of the seatbelt. After the 4 FTs, my partner started over to administer the throw-in and I asked him to switch to put me opposite the table. Didn't look odd at all, just that we were coming together for a quick word before putting it back into play.

At halftime the home AD told me she knew the visiting coach extremely well and he gets his share of technical fouls.

jdw3018 Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 652066)
I don't care for that comeback as it invites another comeback "good,I've been waiting for you to officiate" or "please do", something along those lines.

Secondly, it's a tired, cliched response IMO, one that coaches have heard numerous times before and have an arsenal of retorts that can only end badly.
Completely agreed. Early in the my career I tried the "you coach, I'll officiate" type of line and it never worked well. It certainly didn't make the coach/official relationship better, and often made it worse.

Something along the lines of "We're not going to have that conversation tonight, coach. Do you have a question about the play?" seems to work pretty well for me. I know it invites more conversation where some would prefer to just end it, but I like to show the coach I'm willing to communicate in the appropriate way.

doubleringer Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 649733)




I always mention that he is here to coach his kids and if he is watching my positioning his team is not obviously being coached. That usually solves the problem

-Josh
I would not say the second part of this statement to a coach. When you make a comment like that, you are questioning they way he does his job just like he is questioning how you are doing your job. As officials, we should not stoop to their level. The first part of the statement, "you are are to coach your team, not us." is enough. Telling the coach that he/she is not coaching their team is borderline baiting.

fiasco Fri Jan 15, 2010 02:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer (Post 652126)
"You are are to coach your team, not us."
Yes, by itself, I like this line.

Adam Fri Jan 15, 2010 03:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer (Post 652126)
I would not say the second part of this statement to a coach. When you make a comment like that, you are questioning they way he does his job just like he is questioning how you are doing your job. As officials, we should not stoop to their level. The first part of the statement, "you are are to coach your team, not us." is enough. Telling the coach that he/she is not coaching their team is borderline baiting.
Hey man, good to see you back on the board. Still teaching in my old stomping grounds?

j51969 Fri Jan 15, 2010 03:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 652083)
I'm always amazed by the comments some people say to coaches. I wouldn't say either one of these things because I don't think it is my job to be smart/witty.


Where was your partner in relation to the coach? Was he standing beside the coach, with his back to the coach, etc.?
I am a Soldier 24/7 so being smart or witty isn't an issue. I will leave that to the Air Force:cool: All kidding aside it's not hard, but maybe an art form to bring coaches to your level and not rise to his/her's. I try to be very approachable without being a kiss ***, or constantly explain everything. It's like dealing with a PVT. I wish I could make coaches do push-up's.:p

TimTaylor Fri Jan 15, 2010 03:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 652106)
Completely agreed. Early in the my career I tried the "you coach, I'll officiate" type of line and it never worked well. It certainly didn't make the coach/official relationship better, and often made it worse.

Something along the lines of "We're not going to have that conversation tonight, coach. Do you have a question about the play?" seems to work pretty well for me. I know it invites more conversation where some would prefer to just end it, but I like to show the coach I'm willing to communicate in the appropriate way.
Agree to a point. I have no problem answering questions, and if a coach asks a legitimate question I will answer it, but I'm not going to elicit one from him. To do so only invites a response that might escalate the situation. Suppose in response, he rephrases his statement and asks "When are you going to start calling it both ways?" Then what?

Rather than a verbal reply to an inappropriate comment, if I feel it can't be ignored I'll simply give him the stop sign. They all know what that means, and if they choose to ignore it they do so at their own peril.

doubleringer Fri Jan 15, 2010 03:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 652131)
Hey man, good to see you back on the board. Still teaching in my old stomping grounds?

Yup, still around. Had a crazy baseball season followed by making the Dome in football season so I haven't been around here much. Basketball season is going well. My schedule is about 50/50 between high school and college women. Shoot me an email and we'll catch up sometime.


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