T for 2
 

I've averaged about 1 head coach technical per season the last 3-4 years. They just (normally) don't cross the line in varsity contests around here.

Today I was working a boys varsity 2-person and a ball was stolen near the division line (the visiting coach wanted a foul) and naturally there's a shooting foul soon thereafter.

I'm reporting. The coach is LOUD. He finished with "that's terrible, you're just making a bunch of crap up." That caught my attention.

In the fourth quarter, my partner called a foul against the home team and as he was reporting a teammate walked past me and untucked his jersey and lifted the bottom over (and covered) his head.

At least my varsity girls game tonight was quiet.

automatic T

perhaps flagrant.

Everybody sets their own line when it comes to "T"s. But in my experience, very few officials that I know would view that remark as being worthy of an ejection. I'm in that camp also.

Technical foul, yes. Flagrant, no.

I made it this far in the season with just one T, but I had two yesterday in about 5 seconds. Men's rec (duh). Guy griping a little bit here and there most of the game, then with about 3 minutes left he loses his cool on a no-call and cries about it as we go down to the other end, so I pin him. As I report he walks by me and quietly says "kick me out too" so I did! :D

The home coach couldn't believe I called a technical for the kid pulling his jersey over his head. He asked, "what else did he do?" I simply said, "that's all it took."

This was the same guy who told me I was out of position about 30 seconds into the game. 2-person. I'm lead opposite. Ball goes out tableside sideline -- I didn't even know it went out until I heard this whistle, BTW -- I was watching the post-play dance underneath. Bump and run. As I was coming in front of his bench as the new trail, the coach said I should've been in position to help my partner out there. It was so absurd I actually laughed.

He then accused me of being out of position at a critical juncture late. Rebound kicked out wide and his player took it with his back to the bucket (about 82 feet away). He simply turned to dribble up the floor and a defender was right there and he bumped into the guy and fell to the floor. I called a travel. The defender had position and there was no foul to be called, really. He told me I missed the bump and was out of position. Given the comment in the first minute, I'm thinking he thinks "in position" means standing in his coaching box.

It was a long day. We finished the 2:30PM game about 4:15 and I had to get on the road to meet our third at 5PM and drive about an hour to our 7:15PM game, which was actually more fun to work than the afternoon game (it was 3-person and wasn't frantic, out-of-control action the whole game). The first beer tasted good, as did the burger. Pulled into the house about 12:30AM.

No way it was flagrant. It was a garden variety technical foul. The coach even told me at halftime (he walked right past us at halfcourt) he wasn't meaning for it to be heard by the stands and he was just firing up the team. As I told him earlier, it was forgotten as soon as I administered it and my partner sat him down (he talked at my partner for over a minute during the 4 FTs and not once did he ask a question, so my partner didn't say a single word) and I said it again and he didn't act up the rest of the game.

It's not like he said we were cheating or anything.

Yes, that is all it takes


The second time the coach mention anything about positioning, I always mention that he is here to coach his kids and if he is watching my positioning his team is not obviously being coached. That usually solves the problem

-Josh

Fixed it for ya'. ;)

I agree with jdmara. I think chirping about positioning needs to be cut off ASAP. I will usually address something related specifically related to position (i.e. "You've got to get in position to see that!") the first time. Something more indirect (i.e. "You called that and your partner was standing right in front of it and didn't have anything?!) might be ignored the first time, but certainly needs to be addressed if it's a repeated thing.

Like jdmara said, usually a quick word like "I'm not going to tell you how to coach, Coach, so let me take care of the officiating" will take care of things.

Eh, it was first minute and last minute. The first one rolled off the books by then. It wasn't the time or place. By then we were into free throw land and I was trying to keep things moving.

It would depend.. it might be a technical, might not.

Either way, it's certainly not flagrant.

It is interesting to get people's take on how things should be called. Not long ago we had a thread and it involved a coach attacking an officials integrity and cheating his team. Many people deemed that to be flagrant yet apparently this is different?

Personally, I can't foresee any circumstance where I wouldn't call this T; and if I though the coach was honestly accusing me of making up the rules, it might be flagrant. The thing is, it's a throw-away-comment for some coaches, like "call it both ways."

The latter is, really, an accusation of cheating if you look at the words used. The intent, however, is rarely that nefarious, so it's hardly ever called a flagrant. In the case of the assistant coach who blatantly and purposefully accused the officials of cheating his kids, however, he's done; for two reasons.

1. He's an assistant coach. Far less leeway and benefit of the doubt.
2. He'd already been warned, and proceeded to escalate his comments to the accusation. I'm assuming he means it as it came out in this case; and even a head coach would likely get an ejection seat.

And I personally don't regard that as a throw-away comment. I regard it as an attack on my integrity and I won't put up with it. It's a warning followed by a "T" if the coach is dumb enough to say it again to me. When someone says something like that, imo they're accusing me of being biased.

You can question my judgment but I won't let anyone question my integrity.

Every official has a different line in the sand and a different trigger. That's one of mine. It's up to the coaches to figure out what they can get away with in any particular game. If you let them know, they should have no complaint later if they do cross an official's personal line and get nailed after being warned.

IMO, it's worse than that. Bias is a matter of attitude. But the only reason to say "call it both ways" is if the official is NOT calling it both ways, that is, acting unfairly.

That's an accusation of cheating. One approach is to ask the coach, "Are you aware that you're accusing me of cheating?" Usually they're not.

And I've asked coaches that exact same question.

A coach has got a better chance of getting away with calling me an azzhole than getting away with "call it both ways".

That's what I meant by "throw away line." They use it because they've heard it a thousand times before, but they don't think about the ramifications. Sort of like "over the back" and "reach." They don't think about the fact that you can't have a foul without contact, so they continually toss it around.

I think they need to be aware of what it means, even though it's not as strong a trigger for me as it is for JR. I think it's similar to telling me the foul count.

This is also an automatic whack.

The comment from the coach? I didn't even acknowledge him. He proved his knowledge about officiating in the first minute of the game. At least he was quiet while being stupid about it.

I don't care for that comeback as it invites another comeback "good,I've been waiting for you to officiate" or "please do", something along those lines.

Secondly, it's a tired, cliched response IMO, one that coaches have heard numerous times before and have an arsenal of retorts that can only end badly.

My standard response to something like the above is "Coach, we're not going to have a discussion about this" and leave it at that. There's no wiggle room in there.

I'm always amazed by the comments some people say to coaches. I wouldn't say either one of these things because I don't think it is my job to be smart/witty.

Where was your partner in relation to the coach? Was he standing beside the coach, with his back to the coach, etc.?

And I don't respond to comments unless I have to TCB. I didn't feel it was worth escalating there. I say something stupid or witty and he responds loudly and I've just baited him into something......

About the T:

Alongside with the coach slightly behind (him a step on court, coach in the box), completely non-confrontational. The coach talked, my partner stood there and listened, my partner calmly reminded him of the seatbelt. After the 4 FTs, my partner started over to administer the throw-in and I asked him to switch to put me opposite the table. Didn't look odd at all, just that we were coming together for a quick word before putting it back into play.

At halftime the home AD told me she knew the visiting coach extremely well and he gets his share of technical fouls.

Completely agreed. Early in the my career I tried the "you coach, I'll officiate" type of line and it never worked well. It certainly didn't make the coach/official relationship better, and often made it worse.

Something along the lines of "We're not going to have that conversation tonight, coach. Do you have a question about the play?" seems to work pretty well for me. I know it invites more conversation where some would prefer to just end it, but I like to show the coach I'm willing to communicate in the appropriate way.

I would not say the second part of this statement to a coach. When you make a comment like that, you are questioning they way he does his job just like he is questioning how you are doing your job. As officials, we should not stoop to their level. The first part of the statement, "you are are to coach your team, not us." is enough. Telling the coach that he/she is not coaching their team is borderline baiting.

Yes, by itself, I like this line.

Hey man, good to see you back on the board. Still teaching in my old stomping grounds?

I am a Soldier 24/7 so being smart or witty isn't an issue. I will leave that to the Air Force:cool: All kidding aside it's not hard, but maybe an art form to bring coaches to your level and not rise to his/her's. I try to be very approachable without being a kiss ***, or constantly explain everything. It's like dealing with a PVT. I wish I could make coaches do push-up's.:p

Agree to a point. I have no problem answering questions, and if a coach asks a legitimate question I will answer it, but I'm not going to elicit one from him. To do so only invites a response that might escalate the situation. Suppose in response, he rephrases his statement and asks "When are you going to start calling it both ways?" Then what?

Rather than a verbal reply to an inappropriate comment, if I feel it can't be ignored I'll simply give him the stop sign. They all know what that means, and if they choose to ignore it they do so at their own peril.

Yup, still around. Had a crazy baseball season followed by making the Dome in football season so I haven't been around here much. Basketball season is going well. My schedule is about 50/50 between high school and college women. Shoot me an email and we'll catch up sometime.

I get the fact that you aren't going to address statements. But if you going to stick your A$$ in his face on the sideline and not acknowledge him in some way you may want to give him some rope. IMO

Absolutely, if it is not an actual question, it does not deserve a response unless it is time for the stop sign or the T.

Huh? This was after I gave him the technical.

He gave the coach someone to listen to, which helped quite a bit. What would you suggest?

I totally get what you're saying. My response to that "question" would be pretty simple: "Coach, that's not a question about the play. We're done for now," and I move on.

And his response would be, "It ended with a question mark, how is it not a question? Which, by the way is a question and you said I could ask questions."

If it isn't a legitimate question, don't answer at all. You'll only dig a hole for yourself.

I told him he could ask a question about the play. Not ask a question.

But, hey, I understand your POV. I've used both in the past and had success. If I get the sense that further communication isn't going to matter or isn't worth the effort, I don't include it. If the coach has been reasonable up to that point in the game I do.

I am getting to this thread late. I guess I did not see it earlier or pay close attention.

But you cannot speak for all of us. I do not know if the comments above would even be a T unless there were coupled with some other comments. Sorry, but if that is all a coach said, that is not a T from me. And I do not know any official that said it is "flagrant" if they question your integrity or claim you are cheating their team. It might be a T, but you would have to show me where people said it was flagrant. And everyone has a right to their opinion, but many things have context and you need to say more than this to get a T every time.

Peace

I think people should always officiate within their personality. It might not work for you just like cursing coaches out does not work for me or using the "stop sign" (I thought you would like that), but if it works for you that is really all that matters. And I do not see either comment as inappropriate unless you are yelling or letting everyone here what you have to say. I tend to be a smart azz sometimes and that works for me. But it also does not work in all situations and with all coaches.

Peace