gps-10

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Todd Springer
1 more thing
Dan Ref said that 95% of the time there will be contact. This means someone is anticipating the foul. When we call what we think happened, we get a lot of calls wrong. If we have a patient whistle, we can call what actually happened, and get the call right. Sometimes what actually happened is nothing. But what do I know. I live in Ark.

Yes, but we can anticipate the play.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
But then again, I heard you were good a low blows!

Dan's spreading lies again. Just wait till I see him on Saturday!!

Chuck

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Dan's spreading lies again. Just wait till I see him on Saturday!!

Chuck

I'll be the guy in the George Steinbrenner outfit

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Todd Springer
1 more thing
Dan Ref said that 95% of the time there will be contact. This means someone is anticipating the foul. When we call what we think happened, we get a lot of calls wrong. If we have a patient whistle, we can call what actually happened, and get the call right. Sometimes what actually happened is nothing. But what do I know. I live in Ark.

It seems you might agree with what I said but you have a problem with believing I might be blowing the whistle too soon. I can live with that...

[crew]

this was posted on hoopsref.com website by nba official Joe Forte.
May i comment on a particular play which involves the player who has the ball trapped by the defender. I believe this is Crews play.if an offensive player has his attempt stopped by the hand and or body of the defender it shall be a jumpball.think of the play in these terms.the offensive player makes a move to the basket in an attempt to shoot the ball.If the defender puts his hand on the ball or body without the ball being dislodged from the offensive player this act would be deemed to be a jumpball.Because the defender stopped the action of the offensive player why would it ever be a travel.How can you penalize the offensive player if the defender stopped his movement.?? Allow me to explain : if the offensive player goes up for a shot and the defender places his hand on the ball with the offensive player returning to the floor this is a jumpball.The defender does not have to return to the floor with the offensive player.Just touching the ball and releasing is good enough for the jumpball rule. Now if the offensive player goes up for a shot and the defender knocks the ball away meaning dislodges from the offensive player the offensive player can return to the floor and do whatever he wishes to do. Why because the ball was dislodged. Good to speaking with you guys as we say in the City.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
this was posted on hoopsref.com website by nba official Joe Forte.
Allow me to explain : if the offensive player goes up for a shot and the defender places his hand on the ball with the offensive player returning to the floor this is a jumpball.The defender does not have to return to the floor with the offensive player.Just touching the ball and releasing is good enough for the jumpball rule.

The above may be true for the NBA.It is NOT true for the NCAA and NFHS rulesets.Merely touching the ball does not automatically make it a jump ball.The official has to judge whether the defensive player held the ball firmly enough so that the offensive player couldn't do anything with it.If this is his judgement,then you have a jump ball if the offensive player comes back down with the ball.If the official judges that the ball was just touched,you have a travel if the ball doesn't leave the offensive player's hands and he comes down with it.
A good reference is the NFHS casebook play 4.43.3A(c).That spells it out.
Personally,I like the NBA definition.It takes the judgement out of the call and makes it clear-cut.

[crew]

actually the nba specific ruling is 99% similar to the fed and nc2a.

nba-a held ball occurs when 2 opponents have one or both hands so firmly on the ball that neither can gain sole possession without undue roughness.

i think that this play is a "feel for the game" play, and the philosophy is different at each level. this is definately not a black and white play and definately requires some thought. for example a defender prevents the release of the ball by out jumping the offensive player and blocking the ball with his elbow or bicep, we would call this play a held ball even though the defense did not use his hands. intent of the rule should be cognicent when ruling on a-typical situations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
actually the nba specific ruling is 99% similar to the fed and nc2a.

nba-a held ball occurs when 2 opponents have one or both hands so firmly on the ball that neither can gain sole possession without undue roughness.

i think that this play is a "feel for the game" play, and the philosophy is different at each level. this is definately not a black and white play and definately requires some thought. for example a defender prevents the release of the ball by out jumping the offensive player and blocking the ball with his elbow or bicep, we would call this play a held ball even though the defense did not use his hands. intent of the rule should be cognicent when ruling on a-typical situations.

I agree with 99% of what you say above.
If the release is prevented,at all 3 levels,it should be a held ball.The difference still is that,at the NBA level(according to what Joe wrote),it is an automatic jump ball if the ball is merely touched-while at the other levels it is travelling if the ball is touched,but that touching doesn't prevent the release of the ball(in the official's opinion).Maybe a good question for Joe Forte would be what the NBA call is if a defensive player just touched the ball with his elbow or bicep on the way by and didn't really prevent the release of the ball(in the referee's opinion).In this case,would it be travelling or a jump ball if the ball never came loose and the offensive player came down with it?If you find out,please let us know.Maybe there isn't a rules difference at all.

[crew]

this is what joe put in response after my response

Crew I ask you this question forget about the high school rule, nba rule or college rule for a second.now you have played the game right ??? if so think of this.You go up for a shot and the defender places his or her hand on the ball which now prevents you from shooting the ball.You are in the playground of NY OK and you come down with the ball the defender makes a great defensive play so why would we call a travel.If the defender stops you from achieving your goal which was to shoot the ball why now would we penalize you by calling a travel when in fact the defender caused you to come back to the ground with the ball.???? The common sense thing is to call a jumpball Regardless of the fact you come down with a firm hand on the ball is irrelevant the fact that you stopped the player from completing his task is the question. Why do we need to cut hairs think about the play and what was accomplished

[Jurassic Referee]

Crew,you and Joe are still missing the point.No one is gonna argue if a jump ball is called when the defender stops the shot.That's the right call in all rulesets.The situation we are talking about is the one where the defender merely TOUCHES the ball,doesn't stop the player from taking a shot or pass in the referee's opinion,and the player then comes down with the ball.That is travelling,and is supported in the rules as such.
There is a clear distinction in the rules about preventing a player from shooting or passing vs.merely touching the ball.

[crew]

my bad j.r. i was zoned in on the original topic.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
my bad j.r. i was zoned in on the original topic.

No prob,crew. I was just wondering if the touching/travelling held true for the NBA.From Joe's original answer,it sounded like they called a jump ball if the ball was only touched.That was what I was trying to find out,because I sureashell don't know the NBA rules very well.

[Todd Springer]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

It seems you might agree with what I said but you have a problem with believing I might be blowing the whistle too soon. I can live with that...

All situations are different. This will all hinge on judgement. As for myself, I can keep myself out of a lot of trouble if I make myself have a patient whistle. I am sure you are a fine official. I just wanted to make sure we don't forget about slow whistles.

[mick]

Originally posted by Todd Springer

I just wanted to make sure we don't forget about slow whistles.

Todd,
Dan's whistle is so slow, the losing Coach is still waiting for that last second call in Dan's last game last March.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Todd,
Dan's whistle is so slow, the losing Coach is still waiting for that last second call in Dan's last game last March.
mick

Gee Mick, thanks...I think...?