gps-10

[crew]

dan-ref, and rec-ref,
assuming there is no foul on the play what would you suggest, a held ball or travel? which call do you think best fits the rules and the game?(besides a block)

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Yeah, but the other team always seems to get 60-70% of the calls, you know.

Good one, Coach!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I don't see how a 29.5" diameter elastic sphere can prevent
two 150+ lb (more likely 200+ lbs) humans from contacting
each other when they are moving towards each other, one of
them presumably at a reasonably rapid rate. If B1 is legal I
have a travel. Otherwise it's a block.

Wow!!! You must ref some really low scoring games (zero-zero). That is one huge ball. At a 29.5" diameter, how does it fit through the rim that is about 18" in diameter?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Wow!!! You must ref some really low scoring games (zero-zero). That is one huge ball. At a 29.5" diameter, how does it fit through the rim that is about 18" in diameter?

Good catch,Camron.Sb circumference.In his defense,Dan is noted for his large balls when he referees.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by crew
basically, i was looking for some philosophy on this play. the rule book clearly states that "hands firmly on the ball..."(nc2a and nba) constitutes a held ball. that is why i made sure to say the body created the situation. getting into the defense a litle deeper no foul(my judgment) was committed on the play i saw.

my gut feeling on this play is a held ball and that is what i called without grief from anyone(thank goodness). but when i read the held ball definition i began to 2nd guess myself. then i thought, what if he were to stop the shot with his forarm or elbow and they both came to the floor. i would rule that a held ball as well without doubt.

if anyone were to call a travel in this sitch it is also an appropriate decision-i just wanted to hear from the board.

any additional thoughts/philosophy?

Let's suppose that you are on a committee to write the first ever Basketball Rules Book. After the first draft. someone recognizes that you need a definition for "held ball."

So, you think of the way the game is played, and how you want it called, and come up with the "two players have hands so firmly on the ball it can't be controlled without undue roughness / B's hands on the ball prevent A from releasing the ball on the try" wording.

Everyone agrees with the definition because that's what happens 99.99% of the time -- no one thinks of the rare exception (well, no one except Crew )

I think the *intent* is there -- contact with the ball by B prevented A's release -- that's a held ball.

As someone on another board once said, "The rules book is a set of finite rules to apply to infinite circumstances." If the book had to cover all the circumstances, it would be as large as the Tax Code -- and just as hard to apply.

[crew]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Let's suppose that you are on a committee to write the first ever Basketball Rules Book. After the first draft. someone recognizes that you need a definition for "held ball."

So, you think of the way the game is played, and how you want it called, and come up with the "two players have hands so firmly on the ball it can't be controlled without undue roughness / B's hands on the ball prevent A from releasing the ball on the try" wording.

Everyone agrees with the definition because that's what happens 99.99% of the time -- no one thinks of the rare exception (well, no one except Crew )

I think the *intent* is there -- contact with the ball by B prevented A's release -- that's a held ball.

As someone on another board once said, "The rules book is a set of finite rules to apply to infinite circumstances." If the book had to cover all the circumstances, it would be as large as the Tax Code -- and just as hard to apply. [/B]

i like.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Self
Actually if you read your posts I think you will find your not as clear as you think you are. Just a matter of opinion though.

I read a question for what is written and don't read more than the question. Many of your posts were assuming more than what was just asked.

To me it is simple: Just answer the question given and don't read into it.....

Let's kick this dead horse one more time. If you go back to the original post, before Crew's clarification, you'll see that there is absolutely nothing about contact. Minimal, none or otherwise.


ok folks here i go again.

a1 drives the lane picks up dribble takes 2 steps, jumps and has the ball at his midsection. b1 steps toward
a1 with his hands high to defend, jumps and causes the ball to become "sandwitched"(for lack of better
word) between the 2 players making a1 unable to finish. they then both come to the ground.

So your claim that there was no contact is just as much "reading into the play" as my claim there was contact. In fact, I still say that 95 out of 100 times there will be contact on this sort of play - the ball rarely absorbs the contact. I don't know what your experience is but that is mine. Which is why I said block until Crew made his clarification.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Wow!!! You must ref some really low scoring games (zero-zero). That is one huge ball. At a 29.5" diameter, how does it fit through the rim that is about 18" in diameter?

Well, I already said my balls are special, and now you know why! (Diameter? Doh!)

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by crew
dan-ref, and rec-ref,
assuming there is no foul on the play what would you suggest, a held ball or travel? which call do you think best fits the rules and the game?(besides a block)

I read Bob's post, and I like it except I'm a bit more literal with respect to a held ball, I guess. If I was to put it into words I need to see some proactive move by B1 to call a held ball, which I suppose always means he's gotta get a hand on the ball (and this is supported by the wording in the rules, but as I said I buy Bob's argument that the rules can't cover everything). In addition, since B1 was able to get into A1's path legally he should be rewarded, but that is secondary, IMO.

[Hawks Coach]

My reason for switching from held ball to travel was same as Dan's - B has done nothing to hold the ball. A ran out of space, couldn't shoot, and now is coming down with ball in hand. Put another way, A putting ball into B, rather than B blocking shot attempt, caused A not to be able to release the ball. Good defense, travel.

But I can clearly see either call being made, and a reasonable case for either.

[Todd Springer]

Unless we "ASSUME" something that is not discribed, we have a blocked shot.

[Todd Springer]

1 more thing
Dan Ref said that 95% of the time there will be contact. This means someone is anticipating the foul. When we call what we think happened, we get a lot of calls wrong. If we have a patient whistle, we can call what actually happened, and get the call right. Sometimes what actually happened is nothing. But what do I know. I live in Ark.

[BktBallRef]

What's worse, the thread about Dan's balls or the thread about Jesse and Jesse?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Todd Springer
But what do I know. I live in Ark.

C'mon now, Todd. You should know that somebody already has a claim to the line "But what the hell do I know?" You know, like Pat Riley has the copyright on "threepeat". You might have to pay a royalty if you're going to start questioning what you know.

It would be like sending Tony $5 for a question about catching your own airball. Only you'd have to send it to Chicago.

Chuck

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
It would be like sending Tony $5 for a question about catching your own airball. Only you'd have to send it to Chicago.

That's a low blow, Chuck. But then again, I heard you were good a low blows!