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-   -   Sub not in game for disqualified player (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56079-sub-not-game-disqualified-player.html)

CoachJW Thu Dec 24, 2009 01:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 645461)
10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)
That small window of subjectivity granted by the rule book is what the official would have to fall back on. Assuming the official knows that rule to the letter, he could have T'ed up Team A's coach and explained very clearly that by sending in a DQ'ed player, he was deliberately circumventing the rules. Or the official could do what mine did and just say, "the error has been detected, the ball isn't yet live, the player has been pulled out of the game, let's keep playing."

As Team B's coach, if I could do it over again, I would ask the official in my nicest voice if he noticed the deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules that I was witnessing from Team A's coach. :) Seriously, I do believe this is a gray area question that you could have to be present in order to call correctly.

Thanks for your help again.

just another ref Thu Dec 24, 2009 01:53am
Was the sub on the floor or not?

BktBallRef Thu Dec 24, 2009 02:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 645466)
What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 24, 2009 04:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 645473)
No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.
And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

Of course, the Head Coach would earn an indirect T as well since he has already been notified of the disqualification and team member is now bench personnel.

In short, I agree with the coach who posted the OP. T was warranted here. The kid knows that he shouldn't be out there. The mechanic is to notify the coach, start the 20 second timer, and then notify the player. I'm not waiting around for him to leave.

10-3-5a: A player shall not:. . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.

Smitty Thu Dec 24, 2009 09:34am
This has little to do with the OP but what level of basketball was this? I'm just curious.

Maybe I missed it, but perhaps the referee only notified the coach and not the player that he had 5 fouls. Every time I have notified a player that they have 5 fouls after notifying the coach and then getting the 20 seconds started, the player leaves the court on their own. If the player did not realize it was their 5th foul, perhaps that's why they came back on the floor. I'm not justifying anything - just might be a reason why he stayed on the court.

26 Year Gap Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJW (Post 645432)
A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul. Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.

I was Team B's coach, so I noticed he was still on the court and asked the table, "Didn't #15 foul out?" and they said yes. At that point, Team A's coach noticed that he was still on the court and got him to come back to the sideline. The officials saw this whole thing and didn't do anything, so I protested that Team A should be assessed a T or at least a DOG warning (and they had been catching the ball after it went through the net all night, and that was never called either) since they had an ineligible player on the floor after the 20 seconds. It seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and one of the officials has a great reputation locally and usually calls a pretty good game.

I didn't make a huge stink (with one T in seven years of coaching, I'm generally mild-mannered), but I wondered if people on this board would have handled it differently.

As an aside, the issue of the DOG warning on a made basket/scoring team catches the ball after it goes through the net seems inconsistent with our local referees. I'm wondering if there are guys out there who will only call that if the player catches it and throws it off to the side, taps it, etc, or if you call it any time they even touch it. Thanks and I always appreciate the responses and information I can get from the officials on the board.
Most of the time I see this happen the player taps or gives the ball to his opponent. If a hold of the ball allows a press to be set up or if the tap of the ball is away from the inbounding team or onto the floor, then that is a delay in my mind and worthy of a warning. The other stuff is good sportsmanship in my mind and as long as there is no delay and the other team is not placed at a disadvantage, the game is moving on.

Adam Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:51am
With the after basket activity, if it actually causes a delay (the purpose of the rule), then I'll call the DOG. If not, I'll verbally tell the kids to leave it alone.

I have had a partner not make a call that I later found out should have been made when the ball went into the corner. I was C, he was L on the shot. T and I were talking later, and she had a good view but passed on it as it wasn't her call.

I can see how this would be frustrating.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 645494)
And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

Of course, the Head Coach would earn an indirect T as well since he has already been notified of the disqualification and team member is now bench personnel.

In short, I agree with the coach who posted the OP. T was warranted here. The kid knows that he shouldn't be out there. The mechanic is to notify the coach, start the 20 second timer, and then notify the player. I'm not waiting around for him to leave.

10-3-5a: A player shall not:. . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.
We don't know if A1 was informed of his fifth foul. As long as the sub reported and came onto the court as a player, I've got no T.

It sounds to me much more like an innocent mistake than a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rule. You say A1 knows he's done. I've seen plenty of kids who don't always realize situations the rest of us see as common knowledge.

BktBallRef Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 645494)
And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.
So since the timer isn't timing 20 seconds at this point, you start a visibile 20 second count and if you don't think he's getting off the floor fast enough, you whack him?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

Adam Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:32pm
I think Nevada is saying he's going to issue the T just as soon as the 20 second horn goes off if the team isn't on the court and ready; which isn't the rule, but.... I guess.

BktBallRef Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 645531)
It sounds to me much more like an innocent mistake than a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rule. You say A1 knows he's done. I've seen plenty of kids who don't always realize situations the rest of us see as common knowledge.
Exactly. But you'll always have those with itchy trigger fingers who want to take something out of the rule book, conform it to a situation it doesn't apply to, and whack a kid. It's http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/bs_sign.gif.

referee99 Thu Dec 24, 2009 02:32pm
Coach, did we determine...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJW (Post 645432)
A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul.
What happened in here??

Quote:
Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.
... whether the officials involved did the complete 'DQ'd player do-see-do'?

Non-calling official:
1. informs head coach of disqualification of player,
2. informs the timer to begin a 20-second interval,
3. informs the DQ'd player of their disqualification.

Did either the calling or non-calling official do the above?

Nevadaref Thu Dec 24, 2009 06:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 645539)
So since the timer isn't timing 20 seconds at this point, you start a visibile 20 second count and if you don't think he's getting off the floor fast enough, you whack him?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:
The timer just did administer a 20-second replacement period. What do you think that was for? Not only does the Head Coach have to send a sub to the table, but logically, the team member with five fouls needs to depart during this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 645541)
I think Nevada is saying he's going to issue the T just as soon as the 20 second horn goes off if the team isn't on the court and ready; which isn't the rule, but.... I guess.
This isn't a time-out. The NFHS has made that point crystal clear. So only the Head Coach should be standing in the bench area and the remaining four players should remain on the court during the process. There shouldn't be any need to wait more than that 20 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 645542)
Exactly. But you'll always have those with itchy trigger fingers who want to take something out of the rule book, conform it to a situation it doesn't apply to, and whack a kid. It's http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/bs_sign.gif.
So how long do you propose giving this team to have their disqualified player depart?
I prefer to stick with the 20 seconds that is provided in the rules book. If they go over that, then they are delaying the resumption of the game and a T is justified and supported by the rules. 10-3-5a is in the book exactly for this type of situation.

BktBallRef Thu Dec 24, 2009 07:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 645603)
The timer just did administer a 20-second replacement period. What do you think that was for? Not only does the Head Coach have to send a sub to the table, but logically, the team member with five fouls needs to depart during this time.

So how long do you propose giving this team to have their disqualified player depart?

I prefer to stick with the 20 seconds that is provided in the rules book. If they go over that, then they are delaying the resumption of the game and a T is justified and supported by the rules. 10-3-5a is in the book exactly for this type of situation.
The coach has 20 seconds to replace the player with a sub. Did he do that? I don't think it's been addressed. It would seem to me that if he didn't a T would have been called. Since it wasn't, evidently the sub entered.

The official must inform the player that he has fouled out. Did he do that? I don't think it's been addressed. Snce the player came back on to the floor, it would seem he was not informed. Otherwise, I don't think he's coming back out.

Maybe the kid's parent came out on the floor. That would give you a chance to call two T's! :p

Nevadaref Thu Dec 24, 2009 07:36pm
Only two? I think that I could find a third in there somewhere. Afterall, this is the giving season. :D


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