Sub not in game for disqualified player
 

A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul. Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.

I was Team B's coach, so I noticed he was still on the court and asked the table, "Didn't #15 foul out?" and they said yes. At that point, Team A's coach noticed that he was still on the court and got him to come back to the sideline. The officials saw this whole thing and didn't do anything, so I protested that Team A should be assessed a T or at least a DOG warning (and they had been catching the ball after it went through the net all night, and that was never called either) since they had an ineligible player on the floor after the 20 seconds. It seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and one of the officials has a great reputation locally and usually calls a pretty good game.

I didn't make a huge stink (with one T in seven years of coaching, I'm generally mild-mannered), but I wondered if people on this board would have handled it differently.

As an aside, the issue of the DOG warning on a made basket/scoring team catches the ball after it goes through the net seems inconsistent with our local referees. I'm wondering if there are guys out there who will only call that if the player catches it and throws it off to the side, taps it, etc, or if you call it any time they even touch it. Thanks and I always appreciate the responses and information I can get from the officials on the board.

10.5.2 Situation B
A1 has been disqualified from the game for committing his/her fifth foul or a flagrant foul. The coach of Team A is notified and then the official instructs the timer to begin the replacement period. The player is then notified of the disqualification. The coach of Team A rises from the bench and: (a) talks until the sounding of the 5-second warning horn with four remaining players who have gathered near the boundary; (b) immediately sends A6 to the table to report in. The coach then wishes to gather the players at the sideline for a conference; or (c) sends A6 towards the table but the timer indicates the 20 seconds have expired before A6 get there.

RULING: Legal in (a), as long as the substitute reports in during the next 15 seconds. In (b), play will resume as soon as A6 has reported to the scorer. In (c), a technical foul is charged directly to the coach.

I believe that is relevant to this question. However, if the disqualified player does not leave the court after the 20-second replacement period, how would you handle it?

Are you saying that no sub reported, or that the sub did report but the disqualified player was slow to exit?

My two cents...

As a referee you need too stand there and tell coach to bring sub . When the horn off tell the coach to bring the sub, by the time the 20 is done he brings the sub. Although by rule what is described in the OP is a T, I think it sounds like poor game mgt ...

When the whole thing happened, I figured that the best evidence in my case (which was to convince the official that it should be a T) would be that the sub was not at the table within the 20 seconds. I asked for clarification on that, and the official had to go back to the table to ask them. The answer I got was "Coach, they (the table) said that the sub had reported on time." I was coaching the host school, so I didn't have a lot to say back to that.

However, I think you're right in that it was poor management by the officials in putting themselves in a position to ask the table that question. And when the disqualified player was still on the court after the 20 seconds, that seems like at DOG warning at least.

The disqualified player was not just slow to exit...he broke the huddle with his teammates and started lining up for the FT. I was like nobody told him in the huddle, "We're huddling like this because you fouled out, Johnny. That means you don't get to go back on the floor."

If the sub reported in time, and the officials did not put the ball in play while A1 was still on the floor, I don't think you can call a T here.

The correct call is a T. There cannot be a DOG warning issued as this is not one of the four specific things for which a team can receive one.

No DOG here, coach. I'm not sure what the T would be for, either. If the sub reported on time, the coach hasn't broken the rule.

It sounds like they broke their huddle with 6, but we never T for that. We count the players and send one back. I'm not sure what rule could be used for a T here.

The officials could have done a better job of bringing him out earlier, perhaps.

Maybe they could have gone with RPP on the free throw since he didn't have his players on blocks as required; but this isn't an actual timeout, so that wouldn't work.

All you'd likely have is the officials informing the coach that he needs to have his players on the floor now, and it looks like he would have complied. Not much to call, really.

That is interesting. Since we aren't very good, I'm usually in the opposite position of having my OWN players foul out late in games, and thus have become an expert on the 20-second replacement period and using it like a miniature timeout (which I know the rules are trying to discourage). Last week I had an official breathing down my neck 3 feet away as I was huddling my kids for, at most, 10 seconds. He was interrupting me and saying, "Coach, I don't want to T you up, get your sub in! Get your sub in! You only have 10 seconds coach, let's go, let's go!" He wasn't very professional to say the least, and I know for sure that if my DQ'ed player had stayed on the floor after my huddle, he would have T'ed me up.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

I have the clock set, and I don't say a word to the coach after that. The horn is good enough, and the coach knows the consequences. Most times here, they just send the sub to the table. We only use the clock 10% of the time, at most.

Fair enough, but I'd have to be pretty sure the coach was intending to do this. If A6 (the sub) is sitting on the bench at this point, I'd probably pull the trigger. I'm assuming, however, that 6 players went out there; leading me to believe that A5 lost track of the situation.

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

That small window of subjectivity granted by the rule book is what the official would have to fall back on. Assuming the official knows that rule to the letter, he could have T'ed up Team A's coach and explained very clearly that by sending in a DQ'ed player, he was deliberately circumventing the rules. Or the official could do what mine did and just say, "the error has been detected, the ball isn't yet live, the player has been pulled out of the game, let's keep playing."

As Team B's coach, if I could do it over again, I would ask the official in my nicest voice if he noticed the deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules that I was witnessing from Team A's coach. :) Seriously, I do believe this is a gray area question that you could have to be present in order to call correctly.

Thanks for your help again.

Was the sub on the floor or not?

No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.

And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

Of course, the Head Coach would earn an indirect T as well since he has already been notified of the disqualification and team member is now bench personnel.

In short, I agree with the coach who posted the OP. T was warranted here. The kid knows that he shouldn't be out there. The mechanic is to notify the coach, start the 20 second timer, and then notify the player. I'm not waiting around for him to leave.

10-3-5a: A player shall not:. . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.

This has little to do with the OP but what level of basketball was this? I'm just curious.

Maybe I missed it, but perhaps the referee only notified the coach and not the player that he had 5 fouls. Every time I have notified a player that they have 5 fouls after notifying the coach and then getting the 20 seconds started, the player leaves the court on their own. If the player did not realize it was their 5th foul, perhaps that's why they came back on the floor. I'm not justifying anything - just might be a reason why he stayed on the court.

Most of the time I see this happen the player taps or gives the ball to his opponent. If a hold of the ball allows a press to be set up or if the tap of the ball is away from the inbounding team or onto the floor, then that is a delay in my mind and worthy of a warning. The other stuff is good sportsmanship in my mind and as long as there is no delay and the other team is not placed at a disadvantage, the game is moving on.

With the after basket activity, if it actually causes a delay (the purpose of the rule), then I'll call the DOG. If not, I'll verbally tell the kids to leave it alone.

I have had a partner not make a call that I later found out should have been made when the ball went into the corner. I was C, he was L on the shot. T and I were talking later, and she had a good view but passed on it as it wasn't her call.

I can see how this would be frustrating.

We don't know if A1 was informed of his fifth foul. As long as the sub reported and came onto the court as a player, I've got no T.

It sounds to me much more like an innocent mistake than a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rule. You say A1 knows he's done. I've seen plenty of kids who don't always realize situations the rest of us see as common knowledge.

So since the timer isn't timing 20 seconds at this point, you start a visibile 20 second count and if you don't think he's getting off the floor fast enough, you whack him?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

I think Nevada is saying he's going to issue the T just as soon as the 20 second horn goes off if the team isn't on the court and ready; which isn't the rule, but.... I guess.

Exactly. But you'll always have those with itchy trigger fingers who want to take something out of the rule book, conform it to a situation it doesn't apply to, and whack a kid. It's http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/bs_sign.gif.

Coach, did we determine...
 

What happened in here??

... whether the officials involved did the complete 'DQ'd player do-see-do'?

Non-calling official:
1. informs head coach of disqualification of player,
2. informs the timer to begin a 20-second interval,
3. informs the DQ'd player of their disqualification.

Did either the calling or non-calling official do the above?

The timer just did administer a 20-second replacement period. What do you think that was for? Not only does the Head Coach have to send a sub to the table, but logically, the team member with five fouls needs to depart during this time.

This isn't a time-out. The NFHS has made that point crystal clear. So only the Head Coach should be standing in the bench area and the remaining four players should remain on the court during the process. There shouldn't be any need to wait more than that 20 seconds.

So how long do you propose giving this team to have their disqualified player depart?
I prefer to stick with the 20 seconds that is provided in the rules book. If they go over that, then they are delaying the resumption of the game and a T is justified and supported by the rules. 10-3-5a is in the book exactly for this type of situation.

The coach has 20 seconds to replace the player with a sub. Did he do that? I don't think it's been addressed. It would seem to me that if he didn't a T would have been called. Since it wasn't, evidently the sub entered.

The official must inform the player that he has fouled out. Did he do that? I don't think it's been addressed. Snce the player came back on to the floor, it would seem he was not informed. Otherwise, I don't think he's coming back out.

Maybe the kid's parent came out on the floor. That would give you a chance to call two T's! :p

Only two? I think that I could find a third in there somewhere. Afterall, this is the giving season. :D

Six players on the floor does not keep the ball from being put in play. Put it in play and call that T if you want. But the jillion other times this has been discussed the consensus is always count the players, hold up 6 fingers to the coach, and proceed from there.

10-3-5 does not seem to fit here to me.

Coach,
The 20 second count does NOT start until the official asks for the 20 second clock count for the DQed player.

You did not indicate in your post that the official notified the coach of the disqualification. If the coach happens to KNOW that this is the 5th foul on one of his players, he could possibly get 25 or so seconds since the 20 second period does not START until AFTER the coach has been informed of the disqualification AND the official has indicated that the 20 second timer is to start. While most HS timers are very good at the 15 second warning horn and the timing of the ready to play horn, many are NOT familiar with the 20 second disqualification clock. If the official happened to fail to notify the timer to start the 20 second timer, an additional delay could have resulted here.

You also did not indicate that an official notified the disqualified player that he was disqualified. Some players HOPE that the scorer may have made a mistake and will act as though the foul is NOT his 5th foul. Since the FTs would have been on the opposite end of the court from the bench, this combination of
1. an alert coach quickly meeting with players as soon as the whistle stopped play,
2. a player HOPING that he did not foul out,
3. a player perhaps not notified immediately by the official that he had committed his 5th foul (in some cases, it is not a matter of hope as much as lack of paying attention),
4. a timer not intimately familiar with the 20 second clock (although he should have been based on your team's previous DQ's),
and
5. a referee not in a huge hurry to get the game going (sounds like you may have had Nevadaref's brother in at least one of your prior games);)

can lead to a break in the action of a bit more than 20 seconds. Hardly something worth getting upset about, in my opinion, as a coach.

REMEMBER: YOU, as the coach of the opposing team, are also allowed to use this 20 second period as a "mini timeout" AND YOU don't have to worry about getting a sub to the table in the allotted 20 seconds.

Very true. Actually was an NFHS POE a couple of seasons ago, and various states have experimented with different ideas to speed up this process.

You may wish to look at this from the official's point of view. He is doing what he is supposed to by encouraging you to make sure that your sub is there in time. Would you rather that he not a say a single word to you, and then issue a T as soon as that horn sounds, while your sub is on the way to the table to report? Coaches cannot ever be pleased by the officials, and this is a d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't situation.

How do you know it wasn't actually me? :D

This is exactly what the NFHS is striving to prevent. You are part of the problem if you are failing to administer the game properly as an official. The coach should have to worry about getting a sub to the table in the allotted 20 seconds each and every time. :mad:

Nevada, I think he's saying when a player is disqualified, the opposing coach can also use that time for a de facto TO, without the responsibility of sending a sub to the table.

Yeah, but I think that he is also trying to justify the lack of imposing a penalty upon the team with the fouled-out player being late with their substitution by stating that all is equal because the opposing coach can also talk with his players during this time.
That's not the point of the 20-second limit nor is it how the NFHS wants this to work. The idea is to keep the game moving.

I agree. In the OP, though, the sub reported prior to the horn. Now, it's up to the official to get the game going, as they broke their "huddle" as soon as the horn sounded.

Yep, and if we ask why the officials can't get the game going again at this point, then we see very clearly that it is because there is a team member out there on the court who shouldn't be, even after being subbed for, and this person is the one who is preventing the ball from being promptly made live. Hence my advocating a T under 10-3-5a.

Is your take on this different in the case of the disqualification, or do you advocate a T every time subs come in and you count 6 on the floor as you prepare to put the ball in play?

It is different in the case of a disqualification because of the official notification and 20-second replacement interval which have just taken place. There shouldn't be any confusion about this individual's right to be on the court at this point. During a substitution process or following a time-out confusion about which five should be out there is certainly possible.

Agreed, there shouldn't be. But apparently in the OP there was. I find it hard to call a T based on confusion if I have any opportunity not to do so.

In some cases confusion is plausible and in others it isn't. I guess we disagree here because after just notifying the coach and the player of the DQ and having waited through a 20-second replacement interval, I'm whacking the kid if he is still out there on the court. I don't find it hard to call a T in this case at all.

Shaqs is exactly right, here. My point is that as a coach of the opposing team, I know that most coaches want to use as much of the 20 seconds as they can. As a COACH, I am less concerned about how quickly the OFFICIALS get the game going -- the longer the delay allowed by the OFFICIALS the longer my mini-time out. My point is that rather than worrying about how long the other coach is taking and trying to argue with the OFFICIAL, I quietly go about coaching my team.

As an OFFICIAL, I always try to follow the procedures in an efficient manner thus keeping the game moving. While the coach in the OP may have failed to describe EVERYTHING, there were some things missing.

For example, EXACTLY when was the coach notified of the disqualification? When was the timer notified to start the 20 second clock? When was the disqualified player notified by one of the officials?

I know that Nevada is all ready to issue a "T" here, but the OP NEVER stated that the PLAYER was notified of the disqualification -- this is a REQUIREMENT per our procedures.

As an official, I want to keep the game moving. The best and most effective way to do that is to QUICKLY implement the procedures: notify the coach IMMEDIATELY after the scorer informs the official that the player has five fouls (I usually know when I, or one of my partners, calls a fifth foul on a player BEFORE the notification), tell the timer to start the clock (and remind about the warning horn in five seconds), make sure that the PLAYER knows that he has committed his fifth foul AND be ready to beckon the substitute at the table BEFORE the second horn.

While the purpose of the 20 second rule is to keep the game moving, I believe that it is inappropriate for a referee to RUSH the process beyond what the rules allow. I will typically REMIND the coach that he must have a sub at the table within 20 seconds. I will then follow up at the warning horn to indicate first horn, a sub must be ready at the table BEFORE the second horn. I will then go to an area near the scorer's table to prepare to wave the sub onto the floor to get the game moving, again.

I think that it is inappropriate for an OFFICIAL to talk through the entire 20 seconds.

One thing that has failed to be addressed. As soon as the sub reports to the table the officials should get the game going. Not after the 20-second horn and not after the team breaks the huddle.

As soon as that sub gets to the table we should be proceeding with the game.

Re: Post #44

M&M... are you off your meds and posting under a different name now? ;)

I guess my assumption here has been that the sub reported close enough to the horn that this wasn't an issue; based on the fact that the officials didn't know and had to ask if he'd reported on time.

Frankly, while I think the officials were correct in not assessing the T here, I think that's about the only part of the situation they got right.

1. They shouldn't have had to ask whether he reported on time. I'm typically standing at the table waiting for the sub; I'll know if he reported on time.

2. It really doesn't seem like they informed the player it was his fifth foul. I've never seen a player come back after being informed it was his fifth. The oversight in #1 leads me to believe that this is as likely as not.

Cavs vs Lakers...
 

Anyone see this today? This game was MADE for this forum/thread! Multiple T's, fans throwing things on the court.......and the Lakers not replacing a DQ'd player in time and getting another T from the ref. Cool beans!

Cavaliers cruise as Lakers fans, players vent their frustrations - USATODAY.com

I wonder if they follow the Forum to give us material? Nah.... ;)