T Up a Fan?!?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Again, this displays your thorough lack of understanding the rules. Once the game is over, the officials do not hold any responsibility for fans coming onto the court or field. How in the world are you putting that on the officials? I'm seriously curious about that statement.

It's 100% game management/crowd control. And, FWIW, I wouldn't expect a staff of 6 people to prevent a crowd from storming the court after a big win. That's when you just sit back and try to take names for charges later if the school chooses to do so.

Most of the times I've seen people rush the court, there's been more than 6 people working crowd control. Most, if not all the time, the crowd storms the court/field, the losing team has not been granted the opportunity to exit to the locker rooms. How can that not be considered unsporting conduct, especially if the fans say something to the losing team that has a negative impact or could cause a fight?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's Christmas. You shouldn't insult your 9-year old.

I've already apologized to her. She's too busy with her Christmas loot to notice.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Concerning the situations where I've seen the fans rush the court/field, the officials are still within the visual confines of the playing surface. Also I did not say that the officials bear the full blame, I also said that crowd control is to blame as well. Of course, overall Game Management should announce throughout the game to remain off the court, but how often are announcements like that done? For the games where I've seen this happen in person, the announcements are non-exsistent.

Yes the Texas A&M coach could of/should of been T'd, but due to the seriousness of the injury nothing was done. All the time, it comes to a person's judgement whether or not to assess the penalty or not.

No official that I know of would call a T on the coach there. Typically, when there is an injury, the only punishment for a coach coming onto the court is to assume he's been beckoned and then require the player be replaced or the coach burns a TO. So, while it "could" have been called, no official would say it "should" have been called.
And, FWIW, the severity of the injury has little to do with it here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Most of the times I've seen people rush the court, there's been more than 6 people working crowd control. Most, if not all the time, the crowd storms the court/field, the losing team has not been granted the opportunity to exit to the locker rooms. How can that not be considered unsporting conduct, especially if the fans say something to the losing team that has a negative impact or could cause a fight?

You think the officials bear some responsibility for actions that take place after their job is done. They're off the court, halfway to the locker room, and you expect them to do something about the crowd? What rule do you suggest they invoke here?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You think the officials bear some responsibility for actions that take place after their job is done. They're off the court, halfway to the locker room, and you expect them to do something about the crowd? What rule do you suggest they invoke here?

I was thinking of the circumstances where the officials are not off the court due to the crowd rushing onto the court. Like I mentioned before, I'm not putting the full responsibility on the officials, as it also falls upon the game management & crowd control.

In the situation, like I mentioned before, the losing team is unable to leave the floor due to the fans rushing the court & some of the fans say something to the losing team that could incite a fight or other negative relations.

Couldn't rule 2-8-1 be put into use here? If the officials cannot leave the floor.

If the officials are off the floor, yes it does fall upon the game management & crowd control to get the situation under control.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was thinking of the circumstances where the officials are not off the court due to the crowd rushing onto the court. Like I mentioned before, I'm not putting the full responsibility on the officials, as it also falls upon the game management & crowd control.

In the situation, like I mentioned before, the losing team is unable to leave the floor due to the fans rushing the court & some of the fans say something to the losing team that could incite a fight or other negative relations.

Couldn't rule 2-8-1 be put into use here? If the officials cannot leave the floor.

If the officials are off the floor, yes it does fall upon the game management & crowd control to get the situation under control.

I know you don't think they bear full responsibility. I'm telling you they bear zero responsibility. If they aren't off the floor, there are other problems. Let me put this clearly for you.

Officials have no crowd control responsibilities. None.

That all falls, 100%, on game site management.

If the officials can't get off the floor due to the crowd, that's a problem that will be reported . Part of GM responsibility is to allow the officials to leave quickly.

No, rule 2-8-1 cannot be used in this case. Read it carefully, please.

I'll pull the relevant portion out for you: "The officials may may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game."

The game is over, so that's impossible. This rule is pretty much there for those cases where the fans get together and decide to throw toilet paper or empty water bottles or diapers onto the floor during the game; at least that's how I understand it. Johnny's dad shouting obscenities doesn't count, either.

If game management cannot properly run a facililty, it's not on the officials to enforce any rules to help them.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I know you don't think they bear full responsibility. I'm telling you they bear zero responsibility. If they aren't off the floor, there are other problems. Let me put this clearly for you.

Officials have no crowd control responsibilities. None.

That all falls, 100%, on game site management.

If the officials can't get off the floor due to the crowd, that's a problem that will be reported . Part of GM responsibility is to allow the officials to leave quickly.

No, rule 2-8-1 cannot be used in this case. Read it carefully, please.

I'll pull the relevant portion out for you: "The officials may may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game."

The game is over, so that's impossible. This rule is pretty much there for those cases where the fans get together and decide to throw toilet paper or empty water bottles or diapers onto the floor during the game; at least that's how I understand it. Johnny's dad shouting obscenities doesn't count, either.

If game management cannot properly run a facililty, it's not on the officials to enforce any rules to help them.

Thanks for the clarification on that.

So basically all the officials can do then is write & send in a report tot heir assignor & local/state association where the host could possibly have sanctions put against them for improper crowd control procedures. Or is there more that I'm missing?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Thanks for the clarification on that.

So basically all the officials can do then is write & send in a report tot heir assignor & local/state association where the host could possibly have sanctions put against them for improper crowd control procedures. Or is there more that I'm missing?

That's about right. And the only way we're doing that is if we somehow feel threatened or impeded in getting off the court. The reason is, that's the only way we'll know.
By the time the teams do their handshake and actually try to get off the court, we've got our shoes off.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

By the time the teams do their handshake and actually try to get off the court, we've got our shoes off.

Unless it's a certain state in the northeast, right? Or is that OBE?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Unless it's a certain state in the northeast, right? Or is that OBE?

LOL, yeah I was thinking about that when I wrote it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Thanks for the clarification on that.

So basically all the officials can do then is write & send in a report tot heir assignor & local/state association where the host could possibly have sanctions put against them for improper crowd control procedures. Or is there more that I'm missing?

If the game is over and the officials have left the visual confines of the court, then even a report is more the responsibility of the host school than of the officials.

Frankly, I wouldn't even notice the rest of the crap you mentioned by that point.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the game is over and the officials have left the visual confines of the court, then even a report is more the responsibility of the host school than of the officials.

Frankly, I wouldn't even notice the rest of the crap you mentioned by that point.

Bob,

I was thinking of the scenario if the floor officials were unable to get off the court due to the crowd rushing onto the court. Of course, if the officials are already out of the visual confines there's nothing they can do.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No official that I know of would call a T on the coach there.

C'mon, can't you think of, maybe one?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
Smitty, I've been told on more than 1 occasion from the floor officials that the table can intervene if they feel a rule is not being followed to the extent that the rule is something that the table has knowledge of.

Originally Posted by Smitty

Oh and in any situation where I didn't ask you for your help and you pulled this one out of your a$$, especially this situation, my response would be a firm "Shut up or I will have you replaced".

I think we need to give up and defer to the old adage "Never argue with an idiot - he'll only drag you down to his own level then beat you with experience." He is so blatantly wrong on so many counts that there is no point listing them. Clearly a loose cannon - hope whatever school he works for has good liability insurance....they're probably going to need it.

Did you make it to Portland OK? Hope you enjoy the rest of the Holidays!

[Rich]

160+ posts in this thread and I just can't help myself, so here goes:

I don't care if a coach or parent is beckoned or not. If a kid is injured to the point where a coach and/or parent feels like he/she needs to come out, I've beckoned them (maybe retroactively). My first supervisor gave me this piece of wisdom back in the late 1980s and I've lived by it since then.

Then I get the hell out of the way and let those who have a stake in this do their thing.

On top of this, if the parent says something to me due to an emotional response of seeing her kid hurt on the court, I'm likely going to give that a pass, too. Same with the coach, although I may give the coach a bit less rope.

Under no circumstances would I ever issue a technical foul for this or banish anyone from a gym. I'd have to have left my common sense at home to choose the nuclear option for something like this.